Streetcar Initiative Moves Forward

98 comments

• T thank you February 27, 2010

  Good for the North End, bad for the rest of the city.

• J Jake February 27, 2010

  Just curious but the City is going to start on the Stadium Way redo soon and the City Manager has said LINK expansion would be part of that, so where was the money coming from for the expansion that was already planned?

  Is this going to screw with the MLK LID that is in the works? I thought I heard that was rolling again and the city was working streetcars into it.

• J Jake February 27, 2010

  Also while I think a line should go down 6th Ave. eventually…. 6th Ave. has not shown us any density. Even with the real estate boom only a handful of medium density townhomes were built.

  Whereas neighborhoods like Hilltop have seen hundreds of units built.

  So do we reward the neighborhoods that have brought density already and will continue to or hope that we bring the line down 6th Ave. and density will come.

• T thank you February 27, 2010

  Section 10. looks to be an overly expensive mandate to satisfy the writer’s ego with no perceived value for the citizens.

• T Tacoma1 February 27, 2010

  @thankyou
  Ya gotta start somewhere, and the #1 route is the busiest route we got, so it really makes alot of sense to start there. Relieving scheduling pressure (and operating expenses) off of PT with rail, and at the same time providing more frequent and more reliable service would be huge for all.

  @Jake
  Stadium Way redo (as I understand it) is currently missing matching the funds for the rail. This would provide them. As far as the MLK LID go’s…..I dunnoh.

• T Tacoma1 February 27, 2010

  I’m not really convinced about section 10 yet either. It seems like an unnecessary distraction that transit haters can and will seize upon.

• T thank you February 27, 2010

  So if I understand section #9….
  Well I don’t, but my question is:

  If this passes, then a council of 5 bus riders will be created that are ordained as the transit gods?

  Does that mean they will also find the funding for and set as a priority repair of potholes or will that money be diverted into supporting infrastructure needs?

• T Tacoma1 February 27, 2010

  Most transit orgs. have citizen oversight commitees. That is a common place thing. And potholes are an problem found in roadways. They slow cars down, not streetcars.

• S SouthEndGirl February 27, 2010

  The streetcar tracks are still waiting just below the surface of South 54th Street… With the newly approved South Tacoma mixed-use center and upcoming Sounder Station and historic district, it’d be a sweet ride from the Tacoma Mall transit station down S. Oakes, 54th and through the South Tacoma Way business district to the southern Sounder station.

• G gritcitygirl February 27, 2010

  Who created this route? Why on earth do 2 citizens who are not planners or transportation engineers get to decide where the lines go?

  I REALLY want a streetcar extension but will not sign this.

• N NSHDscott February 27, 2010

  Section 10 probably shouldn’t be in there. I’d like to see that happen, but it doesn’t need to be a requirement or anything.

  I love this overall, but I always thought that the streetcars that run from downtown into our neighborhoods shouldn’t be the same unnecessarily heavy light rail technology used for Link, but should be a lighter-weight streetcar technology that gets us more miles per dollar. I realize the drawback to this is that you’d have to transfer from lightweight streetcar to heavier Link (and maybe then again to heaviest Sounder at the Dome) but it seems acceptable to get more neighborhoods on the line, doesn’t it? Or am I not understanding the issues correctly? (I’m no streetcar expert.)

• M Mattmike February 27, 2010

  I was under the impression from reading the news tribune that the innitiative was illegal and the city council could never approve it going forward…or something like that. Does this mean they’ve figured out the legality/jurisdiction problem?

• T Tacoma_Urbanist February 27, 2010

  As a person who does not own a car I am in favor of any investment in public transportation. My only concern is with the potential development of a line down 6th ave. Although 6th ave did have a streetcar line in the past, I worry about building one there today for two reasons.

  1) The street is very narrow. I have a hard time seeing streetcars, buses, cars, and parking sharing 6th ave. All these uses take place on Pacific ave, but think how much wider that street is.

  2) 6th ave is probably the most vibrant commercial street in town, filled with local shops. Although improved pubic transportation would be a good addition to the neighborhood, long construction projects are not. Just look at the Broadway improvement project, and how the businesses there suffered. Anticipating this effect on the area people protested, causing the project to be delayed for several years. I think that this will be repeated again on 6th ave. To ensure the survival of affected shops and gain the support of local business people, I think some form of equitable compensation must be provided.

• P Peter Peter February 27, 2010

  I’m all for lighting a fire under our elected officials to drive something forward, but this, to me, is a vision from a couple individuals and ignores the input of every other stakeholder and citizen. It’s not the notion of a streetcar line that bothers me. It’s the absolute nature of the route definition. Shouldn’t there be a consensus on a route? Is there data to back up the assumptions stated here? IF this isn’t the best route or design, is there any flexibility to change it?

  Would the two people that submitted this petition post their resumes and background for us to consider? Seriously. If we’re expected to sign or vote on something that will affect Tacoma for decades, I want to know whose vision it is.

• G gritcitygirl February 27, 2010

  Is this route even feasible from an engineering standpoint? Are the people who wrote this engineers? Or planners?

  Also, this is for a STREETCAR extension. Not a light rail extension. It would require a conversion of the existing track to streetcar usage. Not expensive or hard, but very limiting when you think about other possible extensions of the light rail. Extending the other end of the rail could link the light rail to the airport, go out to the casino, Salishan and South Tacoma. All of those stops make more sense with light rail rather than street cars.

  As for an extension toward TCC, what about going up 12th? 6th Ave is so narrow that putting in street cars would probably require removing all on street parking. Try getting the merchants to support that. Or the neighbors. Ugh. Their alignment also does not tie into the MLK LID which is budgeted to include the building of rail. Nor does it link the two hospitals as was recommended in the Angelou Economics study.

  And the “Transit Commission”? What about including an engineer or architect or planner? And to charge a citizen committee, whose members have no technical expertise requirement, with creating a document that will dictate a 30 year plan for our city is unreal.

  I want a streetcar line. I want it NOW. I want to mandate our city government to move forward. But this document is not the way to do it.

• R RR Anderson February 27, 2010

  where do I sign?

  These guys know street cars. bus route 1 and 2 are always stuffed full… they should be street car routes god damn it!

• C Chris Karnes February 27, 2010

  Hello all! I’ll try to answer a few questions and respond to some concerns.

  There’s definitely a need for some kind of public presentation about the initiative to each of the Neighborhood Councils. We will schedule these as soon as possible.

  Why 6th Avenue
  6th Avenue to TCC was picked for two+ reasons, one of which has already been aluded to in a comment. Route 1 is bursting at the seams with passengers. 15 minute bus service is simply not enough to handle the demand. Streetcars have more capacity to handle that kind of ridership in an efficient and speedy manner, creating a main line.

  Secondly, the initiative uses something called a Transportation Benefit District to fund the project, which makes it easier to pass the voters. Bond issues or property tax increases significantly beyond current tax rates would require a 60% yes vote, which would be very difficult to reach in this climate. However, this kind of district can only fund very specific projects outlined in regional transportation plans. This extension from Downtown Tacoma to TCC along 6th Avenue was identified as a necessary project.

  Is 6th Avenue compaitble with streetcars?
  6th Avenue is compatible with streetcars. We’re not looking to operate on 6th Avenue in dedicated right of way, although it may be studied. One of the great things about constructing track to a streetcar standard rather than a light rail standard means that construction times last weeks rather than months. Down in Portland they only dug down 12 inches into the roadway to lay their streetcar tracks, which sped up implementation. I foresee us working on one side of the street at a time in order to keep businesses open.

  MLK LID
  Martin Luther King is going to get a streetcar. This initiative will get track in the ground to 6th and MLK faster. In doing this the extension to St. Joseph and the Lincoln District will be easier to accomplish. Please understand that this is not the end of transit investment in Tacoma, this is the beginning of something that will transform the entire City over time. But we have to make this solid step forward, we have been simply talking about this for far too long.

  The Historic Streetcar
  The cost of a modern streetcar is $3-$4 million. The cost of restoring a single historic streetcar is projected to be significantly less, $600-$800k. So, it’s actually a very cost effective way of providing rolling stock for the line, while preserving a part of the City’s history by putting it to use. It’s the same principle behind the renovated buildings that now are the mainstay of UW Tacoma.

  Streetcars versus Light Rail
  Let me be clear, the new track will be able to handle the same standard of vehicles that are presently used today. Streetcars are what we are using right now on Tacoma Link. It’s called “light rail” by Sound Transit, but Tacoma Link is referred to by the transit planning community as a “rapid streetcar.”

  The difference between the concept for the extension and for Tacoma Link as it exists today is that it will cost less per mile to construct, because we will not overbuild the system to handle the trains currently used between Downtown Seattle and the Airport. Those trains are heavier and need specialized electrical equipment. We would be forgoing those costs, which would save millions and would allow us to extend the line further.

• G gritcitygirl February 27, 2010

  @17 Chris Karnes

  Are you a part of the city? Or Sound Transit? I was confused about the continued use of “us” and “we”.

  Where is the opportunity for this initiative to reflect the desires of the population? Explaining things to folks is good but that isn’t allowing for public discourse or process. This initiative does not allow the public to impact the direction of our transit system. It’s an opportunity for a few people to make their opinions seem like populous ideas.

• T thank you February 27, 2010

  This overly benifits the North End of Tacoma.

  Not to mention that sales tax is also highly regressive. And it is not he right time. If all the proposed taxes go though we may be looking at around an 11% sales tax.

  And a lawyer friend of mine said she thinks Section 8 has legal issues.

• T thank you February 27, 2010

  Please, don’t use “WE” when speaking, you clearly do not speak for me. Speak for your self and your opinion only.

  Unless by we, you already have the fix in to be one of the Transit Comish.

  Is this the City’s way of jacking up taxes by having “Citizen Initiative?” smells like Tim Iman.

• T tacoma1 February 27, 2010

  I would like to address a couple of issues that people have brought up.

  “It’s not the right time”
  Well, there is never a good time to raise taxes; I understand that. However, PT has just told us that we are looking at about a 50% cut in service unless the County comes up with more funding. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pierce County will approve a tax increase. Pierce County as a whole has always been more conservative and transit adverse than our City. With no TBD for Tacoma, and no funding the PT, we are taking a huge leap backwards, rather than two steps forward towards a “car optional” lifestyle.

  “This benefits No. Tacoma to much”
  I live in No. Tacoma, and this route only gets a mile and a half away from the Proctor district, and a mile away from UPS. 1 block north of 6th ave is what is typically considered No. Tacoma, and one block south is where So. Tacoma starts. It does skirt Hilltop and serves the 6th ave business district very well, and end up at TCC. Plus this is just the first route, not the last. There will be more routes coming as funding comes in.

  As far as the will of the people on route selection. The transit users have actually kinda voted already by making route 1 the busiest route in the system. Of course the voters get the final say when this initiative gets on the ballot.

• D David Koch February 27, 2010

  @gritcitygirl: When Chris says “We would forgo costs..” he is referring to the city as a whole.

  Chris and Morgan have been pushing for streetcars in Tacoma for a long time. Chris certainly knows more about streetcars specifically than anyone else in Tacoma. He is a very passionate citizen who cars a great deal about development, infrastructure, and transit especially.

  Remember that no project could be build without engineers filling in details and changing what won’t work. Also, the desires of the citizens will be reflected by 1) voting for this and 2) the citizens oversight committee mentioned in section 9.

  @thankyou: Going down 6th skirts Central and North Tacoma before the line ends down at Tacoma Community College. Keep in mind that it is the areas that the streetcar will go through that will be paying the .02% sales tax increase. Also keep in mind that 0.02% does not equal 11%. Also keep in mind that when he says we, sometimes he is referring to the city as a whole and sometimes he is referring to himself and all the people he’s been working with on this project for a long time.

  Chris been working on this in spite of Pierce Transit, Sound Transit, and the City’s lack of action. He is a citizen forcing these organizations to take action. He is not from those organizations forcing this upon the people. Doing this in initiative form means the people who are affected with get to directly choose if this is what they want.

• T TacomaDude February 27, 2010

  As much as I favor investment in public transportation infrastructure, this initiative makes me very uneasy because I do not see any efforts to build a consensus among the different neighborhoods that would potentially be impacted by the extension of LINK, the restoration of streetcars, etc. or to gather data that supports these investments. GritCityGirl hit the nail on its head when she asked, “Is this even feasible?” I did my undergrad in civil engineering with a focus on urban transportation planning and I cannot underscore how important feasibility studies are. They address questions such as the following:

  Can the city’s density and zoning regulations support these investments?

  Would the ridership be high enough to offset the operating and maintenance costs for these rolling equipment and tracks?

  As some of you may know already, there are many mass transit agencies that heavily depend on federal funding to cover operating and maintenance fees such as Metro in Washington DC, the Chicago Transit Authority and the political and economic climate for the continuation of that funding does not look favorable. It’s important to not only look at the ability to raise the capital for the construction of these facilities but to also look at the funding mechanisms that would ensure that these facilities continue to be operate safely and efficiently.

  I have also heard, or read, comments in other discussions that Tacoma should model itself after Portland or Seattle. People need to recognize that Tacoma is NOT Portland or Seattle. Tacoma does not have anywhere close to the density, the per capita income, and the tax base that those two cities have. I don’t see any efforts in this initiative or by the City of Tacoma to look at more comparable cities. Until I see data that supports the long-term feasibility of these investments, I cannot support this initiative. I do not want the honest taxpayers of Tacoma to be saddled with the burden of an ill-planned transportation system.

  Don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to further development of our transportation infrastructure. I commute daily to Seattle on the Sounder Transit commuter train, ride my bike frequently around Tacoma, and use PT buses. I just believe that this planning process needs to be done thoroughly and achieve a broad consensus.

  I would also like to learn more about the qualifications of these two individuals behind this initiative that allows them to speak on the public’s behalf. What neighborhood do they live in?

• R Rob February 27, 2010

  I do question the timing of this measure – especially at a time that Pierce Transit is facing a funding crisis that could force major cuts in bus service both across Pierce County and within Tacoma. I love the idea of streetcars being added as another alternative transportation option for Tacomans, but if this measure goes to the ballot at the same time that a Pierce Transit measure is on the ballot, that would be an unfortunate choice to have to make.

• T Tacoma1 February 27, 2010

  Rob
  My first reaction when I heard about both transit funding plans was about the same. Then I starting thinking that with PT’s $ troubles, that it is even more crucial that we pursue the TBD now. I can think of three possible outcomes from the ballot box:

  1) Both measures fail: then we would have terrible transit service County wide. Every $ we save on our taxes would be spent on cars, gas, congestion, and fixing roads. That would be bad.

  2) Both measures pass: then we would have fantastic transit service County wide. Our taxes would go up, but if we use the new services, we could recoup our money by driving less. Plus we would have a more vibrant livable city, with less air pollution.

  3) One measure passes, the other fails. Either way we get better transit service – County wide, or within Tacoma: OK, I can live with that.

• T thank you February 27, 2010

  If by community outreach you mean going to neighborhood councils that you are already been accepted on the board showing them some Pix of a streetcar and some lines on a map then chalking that up as ‘overwhelming support’ then I guess you have. Real grassroots and outreach means going out to the public, not telling them to find the time of the next secret meeting at the Parkway. (Corpuz style)

  If it is such a no-brainer thing to do, then why has it not already been done?

  @ Koch
  Does the ‘new’ council support this? Why or why not?

  I believe there better routes that make alot more sense and truly serve all of people Tacoma better.

• C captiveyak February 27, 2010

  I’m going to miss my Tea Party meeting just by taking the time to type this comment, but I think the context is contiguous.

  First off, every second development proposal I read about raises craws and ires as if Eugenics was being discussed. That’s okay, I suppose. But it’s hella funny.

  Next. Okay. I work in the civil engineering business as well, so I’m very aware of the benefit of feasibility studies. It’s not as if a project of this scale would ever be carried out WITHOUT a feasibility study. The initiative process simply secures the funds and sets a broad plan in place and does not commit to an rigid design. Commissions and studies follow. Revisions are made. To do a feasibility plan NOW would be ridiculous. Some struggling engineering firm (or some outrageous mega-outfit) will get the bid and charge $300,000 for a bunch of pseudo-artistic flap-trap about density and traffic patterns. I don’t mean to be a jerk, but these are going to be the same kind of folks who think it’s fabulous to put two gigantic roundabouts within 500’ of each other in a gigantic UNNAMED mixed-use development. Style over function, theory over substance.

  At this early stage, an additional feasibility study would be a prickly and expensive formality.

  Next – the idea of consensus. I’ve heard rumors of the existence of consensus, but have only ever witnessed evidence of it in situations involving fewer than two people. The City of Tacoma was not laid out on a consensus plan. Otherwise, I have a feeling some Native Americans would have had some opinions about where we should have shoved our railroad. The City was built piece by piece as developers purchased government tracts and subdivided them into grid after grid of Presidents, Generals, and Numbers. No one was asked for comment except the fire department, the city engineer, the city council, and the County Clerk. Development has always been about practicality.

  Should we gather every opinion and interest about the location and distribution of streetcars, we will not get streetcars. A plan that makes everyone happy is not only impossible, but impractical. In civil engineering, a very practical and efficient plan is better than a popular one, and can be formulated from empirical data (not forums). An eminently practical inaugural streetcar project is the BEST ARGUMENT for MORE STREETCAR projects. When we have a shining example of the usefulness and virtue of streetcars, maybe then we can all have the pleasure of adding politics and disenfranchisement to the process of building the next one.

• J Jesse February 28, 2010

  One problem I see with this proposal is the route. Streetcars are generally built in cities where the city gov’t wants to re-invest and/or re-populate a decayed area. Right? As much as the hipsters want it to be downtown, the 6th Avenue business district is suburbia. Shouldn’t the innitial streetcars be downtown? Not only for the sake of growth and increased density but for the investment they are going to cause on the blocks touching the route.
  IMO, I’d run streetcar up to about Sprague Ave on Division and not go any further up 6th. I’d rather see a cable-car loop from Foss to MLK and a seperate curculator on maybe Tacoma Ave and loop back on Market Street.
  Any block the streetcar touches, get ready for heavy density and do people want that on 6th Avenue?
  Portland put thier streetcar through the Pearl district at a time when it was just warehouses, drug dealers, hookers, and a place no respectable person would be. It did a great job of revitalizing the area and caused over six BILLION dollars worth of investment in the Pearl to create what you see there today. Then they added a loop onto the south waterfront area and caused big skyscraper condos to be built. Seattles S.L.U.T. is causing all sorts of condo projects as well.
  So, I guess I’m saying that people would need to be prepared for the impact of streetcar in many ways that you may not innitially realize… and that’s why I think it belongs downtown.

• T Tacoma1 February 28, 2010

  But Jesse…….even though it isn’t the perfect route (in your opinion), would you be willing to…………….sign the petition to put the streetcar measure on the ballot to take it to the vote of the people?

• T thinker February 28, 2010

  I haven’t seen the plans. I just thought I’d throw out here how, in San Francisco, streetcars sometimes travel “off streets” behind yards and buildings and other structures. My grandparents lived close to the Church and J Streetcar “end of the line.” We would take the J Streetcar into downtown, and it would travel along parks and behind homes…. A streetcar doesn’t have to be on a street for the entire route.

• R RR Anderson February 28, 2010

  “public input” is teabagger code word for GOP Sabotage!

  The streetcar elitists know what is good for us. You don’t want streetcars? Fine, don’t sign your lame-stain name on the petition.

  I wonder how many streetcars we could have purchased instead of building the stupid convention center.

  Historical streetcars are tourist goldmine.

• M Morgan February 28, 2010

  Choo choo? (?)

  Boy, some of the comments around here are starting to remind me of the TNT. What’s up with that?

  Everybody loves a streetcar. How could you not?! Tacoma was built on streetcars and streetcars will once again build Tacoma.

  This is not a flash-in-the-pan here-today-gone-tomorrow get-rich scheme. It’s the REAL DEAL!

  A chicken in every pot and a streetcar stop on every corner.

• R RR Anderson February 28, 2010

  Did you know there is a streetcar in the old spaghetti factory?

• J Jesse February 28, 2010

  Tacoma1: I am not saying I am against streetcars at all. I think there are a few route options that would better suite this city before this one. In order, here are my preferences:
  1) Finish off current streetcar to travel up Stadium Way, 1st and Division to Sprague.
  2) MLK and J st loop.
  3) Tacoma Ave to Lincoln HS/38th area, turn around in business district and back on Yakima to turn around at Stadium area.
  4) Cable car loop from Foss (maybe A street?)up 15th to one block past MLK. and back over and down 11th.
  5) Oldtown/waterfront on the old Prairie linefrom brewery district, through UWT to oldtown.
  6) 6th Avenue.
  Steps 1-4, IMO, would complete any streetcar needs in the downtown core.

  I do think this is great that Morgan and Chris are tackling this. All I wanted to get across on my previous post is that there were better route options. Maybe this route will funnel people back into downtown off of 6th ave? I’d rather see downtown with the new density than 6th avenue.

  All in all this is a proposal, even if it fails, that gets city leaders off thier collective rumps to start pushing for streetcars — which is good!

• J Jesse February 28, 2010

  “Historical streetcars are tourist goldmine.” — RR Anderson

  Absolutely 100% correct. If you can find 1960’s or older streetcars, please restore and use those.

• M Mofo from the Hood February 28, 2010

  “Tacoma Spaghetti Streetcar”

  It’s all about controlling perceptions with a project of this magnitude.

  In order for Tacoma to attract the ridership that’s needed to sustain a streetcar line, a perceived benefit should be promoted.

  Such as:
  1) Streetcars driven by real spaghetti chefs.
  2) Spaghetti served on all routes.
  3) Free napkins.
  4) Coupons for Spumoni Socials.

• T Thank You February 28, 2010

  Morgan:
  ‘Everybody loves a streetcar. How could you not?! Tacoma was built on streetcars and streetcars will once again build Tacoma.’

  This maybe true, but everybody hates taxes. so what’s the balance?

  How about looking at a diff funding source that is less regressive. I propose doubling the Real Estate Taxes from when you sell a house or commercial building. That way the new deveolpment funds the street car that it benefits.

  And I agree with Jesse, the routes should drive development, not become expensive replacement for exisiting bus lines.

• T Tacoma1 February 28, 2010

  Chris and Morgan. Thanks for all of the hard work that your doing on this. I am definitely gonna sign your petition, and if it gets on the ballot, vote yes.

  This is an imperfect world that we live in, so to all of you who may be waiting for a “perfect transit system” to get behind and vote for, that’s just not gonna happen. This plan is a good plan, a buildable system, and an affordable system. It’s definitely worthy of your signature on the petition to put it up for a public vote.

• P Peter Peter February 28, 2010

  “This is an imperfect world that we live in, so to all of you who may be waiting for a “perfect transit system” to get behind and vote for, that’s just not gonna happen.”

  I want streetcars. But I also want to see alternatives with some supporting data for various routes. This method of dictating a route via a couple people’s interpretation of our city’s need completely bypasses any expert or public process.

  Maybe this is a good plan. Maybe it isn’t. How do we know? Do we just trust the organizers because they’ve talked about streetcars more than anybody else? I have no basis for that trust.

• T Tacoma1 February 28, 2010

  Oh, and by the way, we need to build transit infrastructure where people are, not where people aren’t. The Seattle SLUT example that Jesse brought up – in it’s current form is a transit failure. It starts and ends nowhere. In transit loving Seattle, it is highly underused. Seattle is currently moving the south terminus to Westlake Mall and closing down a street to make it convenient for people to use. The condo’s went in first, and Seattle put in the streetcar to aid Paul Allen’s Vulcan real estate empire. I don’t think that any reasonable person would suggest that the best use of transit in Tacoma is to reward real estate mega-millionares.

  As far as spurring development goes, this line will likely be going up 6th ave past Tacoma Boys and the famous Cloverleaf Tavern. And inbetween the two is that hideous parking lot strip mall wasteland we call Highland Hill shopping center. The 6th Ave business district used to be hopping before I-5 and Hwy 16 diverted all of the cars (and people) away. It wouldn’t hurt to put humans back here so these businesses can be successful again. If you want to spur development, that place is in definite need of some spurring!

• M Mofo from the Hood February 28, 2010

  “Tacoma Rollercoaster”

• C captiveyak February 28, 2010

  I don’t think the issue is trust… especially at this primordial stage of the game. Let’s get the commitment to the funding and the concept. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hammer out the specifics once the logistics are falling into place?

  Also, I’d like to point out a couple things that might seem obvious but require visible phrasing. The point of streetcars is not simply to bring people to areas where nothing is happening. Nor is it exclusively about transporting people who can’t afford cars. It should also convince people who own cars to forgo them in favor of an alternate means of arriving to a place they’d go to anyway. And that is how you guarantee use. An inaugural streetcar line has to be pragmatic, not some fingers-crossed renaissance machine. The awakening of the Pearl in Portland was a side-effect of a pragmatic route between districts. Planned renewal is just as often successful as the grassrootsy random, pleasantly unexpected blossomings.

  Getting lost in concept is indeed tempting. But we risk smothering our civic babies by lading them with too many expectations and conditions. I don’t like smothering babies. It looks bad on a resume, and Nightline would probably run a story about it with lots of dramatic bad music. I don’t need that kind of publicity when all I want to do is meet secret agent women.

  Just as we trust designers and engineers to properly grade highway interchanges and acquire sufficient right-of-way lands, we can trust that there are plenty of data and formulae that could handily dictate the construction of a heavily-utillized streetcar. A bridge buttress is not an issue for public forum. A railroad crossing doesn’t pop up in a citizen action council for design critique.

  Now, I understand there are plenty of examples of misguided public projects. But for every misguided one, there are 1500 perfectly practical ones that no one complains about because they work too well to even be noticed. And for every 1500 beautiful citizen-driven efforts, there are a couple complete and utter feel-good boondoggles.

  Of course, this project is not a typical utilitarian necessity. It’s somewhat symbolic, which makes it more than the sum of its parts. But I’d rather see a somewhat cynical plan that works than an optimistic plan that puts future streetcar efforts at risks.

• T thank you February 28, 2010

  Karnes: “we could restore two historic cars for $1,050,000.”

  And yet the Kalakala and Luzon were cost prohibitive? Why would these cost less than new? And why wouldn’t have every other city bought all these up by now for themselves? It doesn’t add up.

  Morgan: “A chicken in every pot and a streetcar stop on every corner.”

  This is clearly a political campaign, promising that which it can not deliver, “a stop on every corner.”

  BTW:

  “Chicken in Every Pot” is a quotation that is perhaps one of the most misassigned in American political history. Variously attributed to each of four presidents serving between 1920 and 1936, it is most often associated with Herbert Hoover. In fact, the phrase has its origins in seventeenth century France; Henry IV reputedly wished that each of his peasants would enjoy “a chicken in his pot every Sunday.” Although Hoover never uttered the phrase, the Republican Party did use it in a 1928 campaign advertisement touting a period of “Republican prosperity” that had provided a “chicken in every pot. And a car in every backyard, to boot.” – Answers.com

• J Jesse February 28, 2010

  Without the bias of Chris and Morgan, what route would our city planners choose? Where would the next line go? Anyone know?

• T thank you February 28, 2010

  @Captiveyak.

  We agree it should be hammered out later with business district and community involvement, but this citizen’s initiative decribes routes in detail. Once passed they can not be re-aligned and MUST be implemented. With historic cars.

  This the problem we’ve been seeing with citizen’s initiatives. Lack of public input and lack of accountability for unintened consquences and cost overuns. Tim Eyman has made an art of this.

• M Marty February 28, 2010

  @Jesse
  As I understand it:
  The city is currently in the process of securing funding for putting the tracks in the ground in coordination with the upcoming Stadium Way and MLK LIDs to be as cost effective as possible.
  The city is also looking at expanding to the newly re-developed Salishan area, by leveraging significant federal funding, that may not be available to other parts of the city.

• J Jesse February 28, 2010

  @Marty
  Are you talking about going up Portland Avenue to 38th-46th-ish or going up McKinley Ave?

• D David Koch February 28, 2010

  @Mofo: “In order for Tacoma to attract the ridership that’s needed…” The ridership is already there on 6th. 6th is the ideal route to start with because it is needed there the most to fix the bus line that is busting at the seams.

  @thankyou: “not become expensive replacement for exisiting bus lines” Buses are very expensive to maintain. 6th avenue is the ideal place to start because streetcars replacing that bus route (which goes to TCC) would save us money. Streetcars have a higher initial cost than buses, but relatively quickly balances that cost with large maintenance saving over buses. After that we save money over buses.

  @Peter Peter: “Maybe this is a good plan. Maybe it isn’t. How do we know?” I encourage you to attend some of the streetcar meetings. Many different routes have been gone over many time by many people and the 6th avenue route generally has the biggest consensus because 1) the saving over the current bus route there, 2) the overfilled buses on that route, 3) it connects downtown and a high-demand commercial district with neighborhoods and colleges, 4) the strong pro-streetcar support that implies a willingness in those neighborhoods to pay for their line with a 0.02% sale tax. There are many other good routes out there, but none can match this one as the first step.

  @captiveyak: “not a typical utilitarian necessity. It’s somewhat symbolic..” This line down 6th avenue is certainly more than symbolic. It is a simple solution to an overloaded, cost burdening bus line down 6th Avenue. After this first line is complete, the next lines will also be more than symbolic. They will simply be the way we do things in Tacoma… with our minds on saving and efficiency (as long as we use streetcars when the benefits outweigh bus benefits).

  @thankyou: “Why would these cost less than new?” I would also like to know how fixing these streetcar skeletons are cheaper than new. I know you guys have a lot on your plate… but I’m still interested.

  @jesse: “Without the bias of Chris and Morgan, what route would our city planners choose?” Surely, if we let the city government decide for us we would get another symbolic route over something more useful like the line down 6th Ave. A line that saves us the most money the soonest is a good start. It is the most likely to be successful and therefor would be the fastest way to getting the rest of the routes created.

  @thankyou: Streetcars have strong public support, even if they don’t have strong public input. If there was strong public input, then the city would have felt the pressure to take stronger action a long time ago. The most passionate and knowledgeable streetcar activists have come up with an initiative to try to match that strong public support to what they hope will be the strongest consensus. They are letting us decide if that is the case.

  I understand that not everyone was able to put their 2 cents in and that is frustrating especially when it’s something people have opinions about. But know that many people have been working hard on this over the years and this isn’t an initiative out of the blue from two random people who’s goal is to get their vision put in place over another person’s vision.

  This initiative has combined a lot of research from many contributors over the years and those involved have let go on their initial visions to tie everything together in what they see as the best solution for Tacoma. I encourage everyone to attend one of the public presentations and Q&A sessions the streetcar group is doing. I don’t know how thorough they will be, but hopefully they will give some history behind the initiative and show why they arrived at the initiative we have today. Surely they will at least cover the benefits of the route they chose.

• D David Koch February 28, 2010

  It’s interesting how many more comment posts there are when the conversation is about streetcars =)

• D David Koch February 28, 2010

  I meant to say 0.2%

• M Mofo from the Hood March 1, 2010

  Looking for clarification:

  On 6th Avenue the #1 Bus runs every 15 minutes.

  The Streetcar Advocates claim that this route is overburdened with passengers at that rate.

  So my question is this: How many restored antique streetcars are needed to match and /or surpass the number of bus seats already in service?

  (I’m addressing the argument of system effectiveness and maintenance efficiency, assuming the goal is to eliminate bus service.)

• R RR Anderson March 1, 2010

  verily, streetcar comments on exit133 are great. CaptiveYak, Tacoma1, David Koch you guys are the gladiator champions… keep it up!

• R RR Anderson March 1, 2010

  Why should Tim Eyman have all the fun? He’s given initiatives a bad name. I am excited to see progressives start taking matters into their own hands.

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 1, 2010

  I suspect it will be a question of frequency. Street cars that can seat the same number of people as a bus and run at say 10 minute frequency would certainly take some pressure off the downtown to TCC part of the # 1 route. This would certainly put more streetcar operators to work with a gain over the present number of people driving a bus at the current frequency. Smaller streetcars would require frequency greater than larger streetcars. A bus is not a bad thing. Modern street cars, however are configured to load quickly, provide for self securement of wheel chairs and quicker unloads. I suspect the historic streetcars would not be as efficient, and possibly not as large. If we want some historic vehicles on our streets we should consider cable cars that go from A street to MLK via 11th and 13th. The disneyland approach to outfitting a streetcar line is quaint but probably not all that efficient.

• T thank you March 1, 2010

  Koch: “I understand that not everyone was able to put their 2 cents in and that is frustrating especially when it’s something people have opinions about.”

  However EVERYONE will have to put their 2 cents in when they spend $10.00.

  For clarity and understanding.

  What is the capacity of the largest pierce transit bus?
  What is the capacity of street cars?

  What is the current number of transit riders?
  What is the projected number with streetcars?

  Will there be a new initiative to the citizens if Stadium Way is deemed unsafe for rail traffic?
  (Since the routes are detailed in the initiative, it will require a re-vote of the people for every adjustment.)

• T Tacoma1 March 1, 2010

  @ thankyou,
  to respond to your last statement – “it will require a re-vote of the people for every adjustment”

  The routes are spelled out, but the exact language of the initiative reads as follows: expansion of the existing system will generally follow the following alignment: from……

  The key words are “will generally follow” so no re-vote of the people is necessary.

• D DavidS March 2, 2010

  I am excited about the conversation this initiative will push forward. There is one particular section of the initiative language that I’m just not clear on:
  “Sound Transit will operate the streetcar extension at 10 minute intervals at least 14 hours each weekday.”

  Can a City-wide initiative mandate a larger RTA to operate a system? Has ST already agreed to some funding mechanism to ensure that this will work from a O&M perspective?

• S SouthPark March 2, 2010

  If one car will be in North Tacoma, only way I’d agree to support this is if the other car is in South Tacoma. The perfect location would be to run from the new Sounder Transit station up South Tacoma Way to at least the South End business district which has retained much of the historic structures to match a restored streetcar… and we know from experience that the grade would allow a car to run all the way to the Tacoma Dome.

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 2, 2010

  So all we got to do is sign this petition, vote yes on it when it gets on the ballot and we’ll have a streetcar line. The government has to do whatever it is we want if we put it in a petition and then vote yes on it? And Seattle and Olympia say it is ok for us to have streetcars?

• T tacoma1 March 2, 2010

  We’d be building streetcars within Tacoma city limits, on City owned streets, with funds generated from Tacoma citizens. Neither Seattle or Olympia would have anything to do with it. Their opinion doesn’t matter.

• N Nick March 2, 2010

  Perhaps it is worth pointing out that if we accept the proposed funding method as reasonable, 6th Ave is probably the route that would generate the most amount of tax revenue to fund this (given the amount of retail, bars, and other businesses along this route).

  If we want to start growing a streetcar system, we may as well start strong and build one on a route that is most easily funded and that already has bus ridership data to back up ridership projections.

  The first line built will set the mood for future lines. If it’s a huge success, with high visibility and ridership, the likelihood that Tacoma citizens will support future lines is much higher.

  Let’s also not forget the benefit of having a more accessible public transit option along one of Tacoma’s most active nightlife districts. I imagine this would have a positive impact on drunk driving statistics.

• N Nick March 2, 2010

  … was thinking about the route issue and how 6th Ave. is one of Tacoma’s narrower arterials. One option might be to take an approach similar to Portland, where one direction would go down 6th, and the other direction down a parallel arterial like S 12th. That would mean only one set of tracks on each street, reducing the footprint a bit.

  The trade-off is it would probably be more expensive, since much of the infrastructure wouldn’t overlap. But perhaps the cost would be worth the benefit?

• R RR Anderson March 2, 2010

  You should apply for Jake Fey’s soon to be vacant seat on the council Nick. You’ve got the right stuff.

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 2, 2010

  I was just thinking that probably some of this depended on Federal and State money and you know how Olympia and Seattle likes to make sure their voice is heard when the state and federal money is spent. Tacoma might as well be Yakima as far as Seattle and Olympia are concerned.

• S SouthPark March 2, 2010

  To: tacoma1
  All right, good points. Where can we learn more about the future proposed phases? (The current initiative gives specifics for Phase 1 but only a vague reference to “develop a plan for a second phase”.) How to do others around the city become part of its planning? (Awareness, support and petition signatures will come with more participation from residents in all neighborhoods.)

• T TacomaJoe March 2, 2010

  Why is it assumed that fiscal “Nick” must be from Fey’s North Tacoma district?

• T Tim Smith March 3, 2010

  What are the grades to get up out of the downtown? Street cars typically cannot negotiate anything more than a 9 percent slope.

• T tacoma1 March 3, 2010

  They can go steeper for a short block, which is apparently what would be necessary. Of course we could always still send it up St Helens which is not as steep as Stadium Way.

  Don’t get the cart to far in front of the horse here. We can argue about the exact routes (and stop placements) later. If we get this initiative on the ballot, and then a yes vote for the TBD, the engineers will get it up the hill.

• G gritcitygirl March 3, 2010

  Before everyone gets too excited about this its worth pointing out that this initiative is illegal and will be challenged by the City before it gets to the ballot.

  Section 3 is completely illegal.

  Section 3. Authorization of Transportation Benefit District Levy. Pursuant to the authority granted to the City of Tacoma under RCW 36.73.065, the voters of the City of Tacoma support and authorize that an additional regular sales tax levy of two cents per ten dollar purchase to be levied within 90 days of the passage of this Act within the boundaries of the Transportation Benefit District encompassing the project identified in Section 5 of this Act and any other projects identified by the City of Tacoma’s Transportation Benefit District ordinance. This sales tax levy shall continue for a period of ten years.

  A citizens initiative cannot create a TBD. Nor can it mandate a tax levy.

  In the Committee of the Whole today it was made clear that the creators are aware of this. It’s disappointing to me that they have chosen not to change their petition.

• T Tim Smith March 3, 2010

  Tacoma 1. I think I know where the horses should be and one won’t find them in any current generation of streetcars manufactured in Europe or the US. If a proposal is being sold and citizens believe that a service will come and then the engineers have to design and build a unique vehicle to accomplish that, then I think the cost kills the horse. I’m all in favor of streetcars and have many hours under my belt riding on them but an initiative can’t alter physics. We have many streets and routes which retain the original grade and in many cases even retain the old ties and track beneath the pavement from our former streetcar glory days. Cost will kill the horse and engineers will suck the money out of the pile attempting to solve a basic friction problem.

• R RR Anderson March 3, 2010

  Hey in USA torture is illegal, but does that stop anyone? We are living in an age of double standards… perhaps the same magic can happen here.

• T Tim Smith March 3, 2010

  I went down and took a close look at the grades in question. Its a shame that St Helens is kind of off the table. The LID improvements by City Hall would have to be undone/altered to allow a connection there. Stadium Way appears doable with only the tricky and steep corner by Stadium Way HS/Rexall drugs to contend with.

• T Tacoma1 March 3, 2010

  Tim
  I looked up the max grade for the skoda car that T-Link is currently using, and saw it referrenced to be at 8.5% – 9%.

  I agree with you that it is too bad that St. Helens (which is a 8% grade) is apparently off the table. I understand, however, that the City of Tacoma has found federal funds to help with rebuilding Stadium Way. The rebuild includes prepping Stadium Way to be compatible with street cars, but does not actually include the tracks. I would have to interpret this to mean that they will regrade the slope on Stadium Way to be a more gentle climb than it currently is.

• M Morgan March 4, 2010

  Wow! Great thread!

  A quick note on the “sales tax for streetcars” – I hate sales tax along with everybody else. Unfortunately, the way our laws are written, it was the only realistic funding mechanism that we could use for the initiative. My preference was to use property tax, but that would require a higher percentage of “yes” votes than the sales tax route.

• T Tim Smith March 4, 2010

  In Augsburg, Germany (and other european cities) they have a party car which is a dedicated street car that roams the city network with a party inside. Usually a group of poeple rent this for the evening. Food, wine, dancing it is a reat hoot!

• T Tacoma1 March 4, 2010

  I’m thinking a martini bar car would be sweet…….for the ride home from work only of course. ST refuses to put one on the Sounder.

• J jamie from thriceallamerican March 4, 2010

  If I had a dollar for every time I’ve wished there was a club car on Sounder…

• J Jesse March 5, 2010

  If the “powers that be” think this would help downtown in it’s efforts to revitalize by funneling people in by rail, and it doesn’t take money for streetcar away from the MLK project, I’m all in. Where do I sign up to help out?

  Again, for clarity, my comments above are not anti-streetcar in any way. They are there to challenge the best bang for the buck as streetcars are actually sometimes too good at creating commerce and investment.

• T Tacoma1 March 5, 2010

  @ thriceallamerican
  That’s funny. Sounds like you and I would both be rich if we had a dollar for every one of those wishes.

  In reality, I would gladly settle for a fast, frequent trip to Crown Bar from the Sounder…..I can get home on foot from there after some refreshments from Dino and the crew.

• D Derek staff March 5, 2010

  To follow up on something brought up by GCG @76, the City Council will most likely give the city attorney the go ahead to challenge the initiative at its next meeting on Tuesday. This was discussed in length during the Committee of the Whole.

  Fundamentally, the scope of the initiative is beyond the power of the people. Specifically, it assumes the existence of a Transportation Benefit District. While it also requires the formation of one, state law gives the power to form a TBD to the governing body. If formed, the governing body can choose to use its taxing authority. The people cannot force the creation of the TBD.

  A pre-election challenge will most likely begin next week. There was a fundamental question of timing. Do they file it now or wait for signatures? A judge may ultimately decide it’s too early to challenge, but the Councilmembers also wanted to make sure people knew what was going on as soon as possible.

  The city attorney says that she made the petitioners aware of these problems during their meeting, but they chose to go ahead with it anyway.

  It should be said that the Council seems very supportive of transit and streetcars and citizen involvement, but thinks the timing and structure was all wrong. This was said over and over again.

  Prior to the initiative discussion, the City Manager laid out the current timing for the alternative studies required to lay tracks that go up the hill and/or out to Salishan. One study may be done by year end in order to begin laying track up Stadium Way (or not). The city has money to fix that street and they don’t want to fix it only to dig it up again to put in streetcar lines. There is also a larger study that is required in order to receive federal funds. The timing on that is a bit further out due to its complexity, but is already beginning to move forward.

  We’ll let you know if we hear more.

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 5, 2010

  First the loss of the Warehouse and now it seems that this initiative is about to go down the drain before it even gets started. I guess Seattle will end up with all the fancy streetcars they want and Tacoma will continue to get hind teat.

• D David Koch March 5, 2010

  So will the council be seen as the ones that killed the streetcar?

• A Ariminius March 5, 2010

  “state law gives the power to form a TBD to the governing body” Hmmm…last time I checked the people were the governing body. The council serves and exists at our pleasure. Frankly, Liz Pauly rates about a 3 on the 1-10 trust meter – and her staff.

• J Jesse March 5, 2010

  By many neighborhoods in the area being on the record for streetcars, I would assume you could easily divide the city into those neighborhoods on a map and make them into TBD’s… but I am sure it’s not that easy as we ARE talking about gov’t and thier notorious snails pace.

• D dolly varden March 5, 2010

  Thanks for the update/reality check, Derek. You’d think you might be able to read about an important story like this in the local daily newspaper…

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 5, 2010

  About the best we can hope for is to have our taxes go up so that Seattle can have the fancy streetcars. Really, our only hope is to get Norm Dicks involved. Maybe he can claim it would be good for the bases and we can get some action on this.

• J jamie from thriceallamerican March 5, 2010

  @Tacoma1:

  Don’t even get me started on how much of a pain it is to ride the Sounder and then connect with Pierce Transit, who apparently aren’t aware that if they actually coordinated their schedule with regional transit people might use the bus instead of driving their cars to the Dome lot.

  I’d be a proponent of the ST 590 continuing right up along Stadium Way and 6th Ave to TCC. Would switch me from the train to the express bus really quickly (or at least I’d know I could easily transfer to a 590 at the Dome since those things run more frequently than the 1).

  Sorry for the off-topic, but you got me started…

• T Tacoma1 March 5, 2010

  To Pierce Transit:
  Exactly what thrice said, but more of it!

  @ Crenshaw
  You’re tax dollars didn’t go to central link, and you don’t use it so it costs you nothing. I for one am in favor of all transit that is fast, efficient,and causes no end user pollution – it doesn’t have to be in my neighborhood to get my support.

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 5, 2010

  Tacoma1, are you willing to say there was no State or Federal money in the Central Link?

• C crenshaw sepulveda March 6, 2010

  The Central Link is hugely subsidized. Who is paying for this subsidy? Certainly not the users (what few there are), their fare is a tiny fraction of what it takes to to run and pay for the Central Link.

• T Tacoma1 March 6, 2010

  This is way off topic, but Central Link was funded via ST-1. That means King County tax payers are paying for it. It also means every time I hop on it, all those f’rs in Seattle paid most of my trip for me.

  I thank them much.

• R RR Anderson March 7, 2010

  my streetcar tacomic is going to be lame if the city legal voodoo kills the initiative before it even starts.

  maybe Liz Pauly performing a back alley streetcar abortion with a coat hanger? Maybe she can be tacoma’s first anti-action figure!

• J Jesse March 10, 2010

  “Bus people.”

• M Morgan March 10, 2010

  Ariminius @ 91: That’s what I thought too. And I was under the impression the council would want to create a Transportation Benefit District with or without streetcars. I was mistaken. Time to re-think and re-write.

  Rant @ 98: I couldn’t agree more. During the past 5 years that we have been TALKING about streetcars, other cities have been BUILDING streetcars.

  Also, there is no reason I can see that an Alternatives Analysis, as required to tap into Federal funding, should take longer than 3 months. Anything longer is suspect.

  ps: We’re not dead yet!

• M Morgan March 10, 2010

  dolly @ 93: It is peculiar that the TNT has not mentioned the citizens initiative.

• T tacoma1 March 10, 2010

  Morgan,
  The TNT doesn’t seem to have much going for it these days. I still subscribe, but without Dan Voepel, there isn’t anyone with the writing chops left to write an investigative piece.

  Just by moving the Tacoma streetcar and mobibility issue forward on the politicians plate, you and Chris are doing a tremendous amount of good for our city. The squeaky (streetcar) wheels always get the grease, so keep it up. I thank you both.

• N Nick March 10, 2010

  Can someone explain to me why the council wants to expend resources fighting an imperfect effort to get streetcars in Tacoma?

  Why not spend that energy being constructive? If parts of the initiative aren’t legal or won’t work, wouldn’t it be better to find a way to either help make it work, or at least improve collaboration between the council and those of use who are passionate about making this happen?

• M Morgan March 11, 2010

  To be sure, I do believe this is a strong progressive council – maybe the best we’ve had in a long time. That said, I still find the make-up to be overly cautious and not wanting to take actions that may, in the short term, piss some people off.

  The mayor and council have indicated that streetcars are a priority – along with a list of other things. The council has no interest in killing the initiative – though some may want it to go away.

  I personally believe there is a way for the city to move forward with a long-term more comprehensive approach (with streetcars integrated) AND for streetcar supporters (via the initiative) to see rail in the ground in the near term – 2 years.

  I appreciate all the feedback – both positive and not. Let’s keep this moving forward!