Hollander's Foss Site 4 Plans - Delayed Again
The Hollander Investments plan to build a hotel on the The Foss has been delayed once again. If you recall, Hollander planned to build a mixed use hotel project at Site 4. This is the property located between the Esplanade and Thea’s Landing. The sale of the property was delayed by the City Council over an indemnity agreement. Now, from the City Manager’s weekly report to Council:
12. At the request of Council Member Woodards, Community and Economic Development staff provide the following update on the Hollander site. The closing on the sale of the Foss Waterway Site 4 property to Hollander has been delayed due to the filing of a petition by the KS Tacoma Holdings LLC (the Murano) for reconsideration of the decision of the Shorelines Hearings Board in the appeal of Hollander’s amendment to the current shoreline permit. It could take up to another 15 days to get a ruling. If reconsideration is denied KS Tacoma has 30 more days to appeal the denial of reconsideration and dismissal of the appeal.
We’ll be talking about this site for a while …
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Filed under: Tacoma Business, Developments, Hotels, Foss Waterfront, Foss Hotel
46 comments
J Jesse July 9, 2010
Time is money. Money isn’t endless even for the hotel developer. Quit screwing with them and let them build before they decise it’s not worth the hassle.
R RR Anderson July 9, 2010
freaking hate the Murano. I hate their stupid fire feature and I hate their stupid ‘public art’
E Elizabeth Burris July 9, 2010
After Hotel Murano let Wintergrass leave Tacoma I have little love for them. Let the Hotel building begin!!!
C crenshaw sepulveda July 9, 2010
Muck Furano!
T Thorax O'Tool July 9, 2010
Does the Murano not want people to like them or something?
Clearly, they’re afraid of something.
Seriously, I hope they read this. If the Murano is able to prevent that hotel from being built, I will not ever do business with them, nor will I let my friends & family do so.
R RR Anderson July 10, 2010
the portland millionaire has brainwashed the union goons at the Murano to do his bidding! Let the damn hotel be built then rally the workers in the new hotel to join the union.
also…
I hate the ronald mcdonald Murano staff costumes! Murano Sucks!!!!
R RR Anderson July 10, 2010
Why does Hotel Murano hate Tacoma?
C Christine July 10, 2010
Let’s not forget that they closed the coolest rooftop bar in Tacoma. Oh—the ONLY rooftop bar in Tacoma. Booooo Murano.
I second the motion: Muck Furano!
L lostinlosangeles July 11, 2010
The problem is Tacoma has too many ‘onlys’. So when something closes it hurts everyone. Luckily those only are mediocre to begin with so with a little critical concluding, the loss isn’t really that bad of a thing.
It’s so refreshing though that, for example, So Cal effortlessly is kick ass all year round unlike some places on the west coast. And the people in Cali are REALLY easy on the eyes. I think that weather and climate has something to do with genetic drift in humans. But even other primates, like even if Sasquatch would give up hiding in the soggy moldy forests of the northwest, pack up his beloved Neko Case cds, shave his face and get a job life guarding on Mermosa Beach, in a few generations his offspring would probably all look like the cast from point break. Muck Furano? Nah, Tuck Facoma.
T Thorax O'Tool July 11, 2010
inacoma, is that you?
T Tacoma Fan July 12, 2010
RR… Looks like you have your Tacomic fodder for the week.
M Mr. Energy July 12, 2010
Meanwhile – what is going on w/ the development of Heidelberg into a hotel by Hotel Concepts?
J joe-nate July 12, 2010
The Murano folks invested heavily in their project and now see profit potential dissipating as corporate clientele diminish in comparison to middle-management conventioneers seeking cheaper lodging. A rising tide floats all boats but somehow Murano perceives a limited pie. In typical myopia for Tacoma, fear is that white-collar businesses will still gravitate to Seattle and only modest gatherings of people will meet in Tacoma. Fear is what holds Tacoma back—hardly the 1880s/1890s City of Destiny: build the new hotels and jumpstart the economy with legitimate commerce on the sidewalks and new construction jobs. Realize the potential of the Thea Foss—it takes vision and courage.
A Altered Chords July 12, 2010
So. Cal. sucks.
Sit in a car driving north from Newport bch home to huntington beach on pac. hwy. You stop at the red light at main street as throngs upon throngs of people waik across the street.
you’re just a few feet from the ocean and all you can smell is car exhaust, cigarette smoke, coconut tanning butter and b.o.
No, give me puget sound any day. That includes 34 degrees and raining.
Have a great time in so cal.
T TacomaTank July 12, 2010
Murano is worried about Tacoma being too small of a market, but by being obstructionists they basically ensure that exact outcome. Plus most of the people that I’ve heard from that have stayed there consider it to be extremely mediocre, at relatively high prices. If I was them I’d stand in the way too, it’s easier in the short term to do business with no competition. I direct most of my out of town visitors to the Courtyard or the Silver Cloud, this is just another reason to do that. Plus the sculpture outside looks dumb. Is it giant ladle or something? What does that have to do with Tacoma? I hope they go out of business.
L lostinlosangeles July 12, 2010
To each his own, but Cali owns obviously. LA is a dump, it shows way more age than it’s post card, but, at this old bus station the buses are actually going somewhere (depending on what your business is).
Yeah the traffic is horrible, but there is a thing called metrolink you can use to get into town while living out of town in the little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky-tacky. Metrolink is like the light rail service that Facoma should have, but doesn’t.
I don’t know, LA has the same stupid scenesters as Facoma or Shitattle, but at least they have the nerve to live in LA. And I think at the end of the day, depending on what your business is in life, you have to be able to look in the mirror and say, at least I had the balls to try to swing it in the major leagues.
But have fun in the minors, Altered.
And now for a toke and a dip in the pool.
T tressie July 12, 2010
what crenshaw said…and @16…That “art” thing is a big fish hook…for the tourists mouth …
N new to tacoma July 13, 2010
It would make sense to me that an owner of a world class hotel and someone who has invested several million dollars of his own money would be concerned about new development.
Also, isn’t the Marriott Courtyard, right across the street from the Convention Center a Hollander investment? And wasn’t that piece of property given to him for pennies on the dollar (negotiated by the City) to block the view of the Convention Center.
Now, after the City spent millions of dollars cleaning up Thea Foss and Site 4. He gets to swoop in and build another limited service hotel?
If we want Tacoma to grow and continue to thrive. Wouldn’t it make sense to have a better hotel on a beautiful waterfront location?
The sun was out all last week, take your head out of the gray clouds and look past your nose.
R RR Anderson July 13, 2010
Let’s talk about city giving away property for pennies on the dollar. Anybody remember the Bi-centennial pavilion?
A hotel is better than a dead empty hole… unless you’re the Hotel Murano.
J Jake July 13, 2010
Now, after the City spent millions of dollars cleaning up Thea Foss and Site 4. He gets to swoop in and build another limited service hotel?
Since when was the Hollander’s Courtyard a limited service hotel? It has a restaurant, lounge, pool, room service, day spa, salon, barber shop, 2 different meeting and events spaces, on-site catering, high-end suites, visitor/tourism office….
T TacomaTank July 13, 2010
“Wouldn’t it make sense to have a better hotel on a beautiful waterfront location?”
I don’t think anyone would object to that at all, in fact I think a lot of effort has been focused on exactly that but with very little success. Who did you have in mind to build this better hotel? (and for the record I think Hollander did a nice project at the Courtyard, and I’ve never heard a complaint from someone I sent there)
in addition to the Bi-Centennial Plaza site, as I recall the City financed construction of the Murano (Sheraton at the time). Would the current Murano object to the city financing another hotel in the City? I wonder.
Unfortunately it has been many, many years since a hotel was built in the core of the City without some for of government subsidy. Despite all the effort, the private sector has chosen other locations when everything is done on a level playing field.
R Richard July 13, 2010
As far as a better hotel think something along the lines of The Clement Monterey. It takes ques from the history of the peninsula and blends it with Intercontinental’s style. Will Intercontinental ever build in Tacoma? Most likely never, but there are much better options than another Marriott. Why would you want to another airport grade hotel on the Foss? I mean think about it, the Foss is the refection pool of Tacoma.
C crenshaw sepulveda July 13, 2010
The Foss is the reflection pool of Tacoma? Cesspool maybe, not sure I’d want to do much reflecting there.
T TacomaTank July 13, 2010
Richard –
I’m not sure that anyone’s first choice would look like what is proposed. I’d love to see something much more ambitious built there. Love it. And I understand that there examples all over the world of better hotels on the water that are true destinations, places people remember for years. I would love to see that built down there. But that’s not happening. And speaking as a business owner that HAS invested downtown, and HAS been patiently awaiting the promise of Tacoma’s potential to become a reality – at some point this City needs to take what it can get and then build on that. At some point the people that have invested in the “vision” need to see others stepping up or they start getting cold feet and bailing out. I’d love to see something more, but frankly I think this is the best hotel proposal will be seeing in the next 2-3 years, and unless the City plans to built a hotel themselves, I think they’ll be grateful for the investment by Hollander. This hotel does not have to mean the end of hotel development in the City, it just means that particular site is no longer available. It’s a great site sure but right now it’s also a pile of dirt and rubble with a fence around it – and it’s been that way for more than a couple decades.
This is not a HWY 99 Motel 6 that has been proposed, it is a nice project that represents someone taking very real financial risk based on the potential that they see in Tacoma. I think we should welcome that rather than pointing out to them that we’ve stayed at nicer hotels in other cities. Tacoma is not Monterey, or at least not the Monterey that exists today. Monterey has had tough times in the past and they’ve done a great job creating a beautiful city, but I’d bet the Intercontinental was not the first to set up shop, there were quite likely much more modest investments made along the way that proved that the City could support something even better. The way I look at this, Hollander did the Courtyard, it’s been successful. They’ve decided to double down. That’s great news. I think it is the kind of news that other business people will recognize and understand…it says that Tacoma is a place that can support more than one hotel. More often than not, that leads to something even better.
E Erik B. July 13, 2010
Hollander is one of the very few entities willing to invest in Tacoma on a dead blighted lot.
The life on the waterfront is 1/10th of what it could. A hotel, built on the realistic market, on the water would help a great deal.
There are always 100 reasons why any idea to invest or start a business in Tacoma is impossible which has eviscerated downtown Tacoma into the largely blighted shadow of what the city once was.
C captiveyak July 13, 2010
There are simply too many cooks with approval powers in this kitchen. This serpentine path to development adds another layer of deterrence to investing in Tacoma.
R RR Anderson July 13, 2010
i love the reflection pool bit. what do I reflect upon when I stare over the port… not happy thoughts, no sir.
P Princess Adora July 13, 2010
Why is there so much of a big deal? I though this was a free country with a free market. The city has no business meddling with whether or not a shop is union. If the Murano thinks it can’t compete with a non-union competitor, then either the Murano needs to ditch it’s union or seriously rethink their business plan.
R RR Anderson July 13, 2010
not every hotel can be a 1980’s Sheraton. TAM, MOG, and Convention Center are terrible ‘new urbanist’ buildings we need more form follows function type crap. People holding out for mr. right need to wake up and join the real world.
R RR Anderson July 13, 2010
DEATH TO STARCHITECTURE!
T TacomaThinker July 14, 2010
Can we also replace Red-Hot with a McDonalds? Have you seen the amount of people a McDonalds generates!
How about we replace Renesaince Cafe and Amocate with a Denny’s and Starbucks…people and thriving business right?
Developers use the city but it takes the people to shape it.
This is a question about a city’s identity expressed through what it builds. It’s not about prestigious architecture.
Don’t forget what made the Luzon special was who built it and why.
R RR Anderson July 14, 2010
@36
we’re talking about building a hotel on a bombed out dirt pit surrounded by a fence. Are you fighting evil in another dimension or what?
T TacomaThinker July 14, 2010
Thea Foss by way of tens of millions of dollars and thousands of hours is the face of downtown Tacoma and there are only six sites on which to build. It’s not a leftover dirt pit.
Today’s condition is so very temporary compared to the 100 years we’ll live with what’s built. Not to mention the precedent it sets to allow non-union labor.
There is a good reason why so many cities keep corporate America out of the heart and on the fringe of the city…Nowheretown USA sucks.
E Erik B. July 14, 2010
we’re talking about building a hotel on a bombed out dirt pit surrounded by a fence.
Only in Tacoma could a bombed out dirt pit sitting empty for decades and an unparalleled level of blight downtown be accepted as the cultural norm. (Except perhaps for Detroit or St. Louis)
T TacomaTank July 14, 2010
I agree that we should get the best possible project for that site, but I’ve also seen picture of that site from the 1960’s – 50 years ago – and the area was pretty much an eyesore then too. How long are we planning to wait? And for what reason would you expect that a trend-setting, architectural gem of a hotel would select that spot to set up shop. I just don’t understand the belief that the first hotel down there is going to be a world-class, architectural gem. Why would someone who wants to build that kind of hotel chose that location? What am I missing? It has waterfront but we have hundreds of miles if undeveloped waterfront property in this state – the site has a few things going for it but it also has some very unique but bad characteristics – such as the train tracks behind it, the lack of retail, the lack of vehicle traffic.
One very similar site to this one is the site where the Marriott was built in downtown Seattle. Sandwiched between railroad tracks, a freeway and the water. But that site also had view of the Olympics and the Sound as opposed to the SuperValu Wharehouse. That site had a cruise terminal across the street and the Port’s convention center, and a short walk to the market, and the dock to the Victoria Clipper. Even with all that either in place or built concurrently, they got a Marriott. And that was built in a better economy.
So…what makes this site so much better than that?
And as far as Nowheretown USA, I can’t even understand that concern considering what I see south of about 21st Street. The majority of the retail in this City is the epitome of Nowheretown, it’s a bunch of mid-range chain stores clustered around a mall. There are a handful of extremely small non-corporate retail areas in the City. The Nowheretown USA label applies right now, and it has ever since the mall got finished. The horse is out of the barn and about ten miles down the road on that one.
Again, I understand nobody would chose this project in their dreams, I totally understand that. But I need someone to help me understand how we get from the awesome ideas that we all see in other cities to the point where investors, corporations and companies put real money into actually building something. Not planning, talking or sketching- building, with an excavator and hammers and stuff. Because whether you like corporations or not, and whether you agree with the need for union labor in hotels or not…a corporation is almost certainly going to be the only entity that has the resources to get something DONE – at least in the foreseeable future.
C captiveyak July 14, 2010
Couldn’t one argue that just about every US city has always looked the same? Every colonial hamlet, every Old West mining town, every working waterfront… etc. What we refer to now as “unique identity” is really only the leftovers of a former conformist pattern.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t aim for something better than mediocre. But I think that any comparative term such as “mediocre” depends on its comparison, as others have pointed out.
I have to admit that the thought of another large hotel downtown does seem a little extravagant to me at the present time. But I also like to be reflexively in favor of investment in Tacoma. The Foss waterfront should be developed, and the public should enjoy greater access to our lands. This does not necessarily mean a hotel is the solution.
But is a hotel likely the most reasonable solution, since we’re already choked with condos, stocked with museums, and rife with reconcilliation parks? Maybe. A multi-use development like Point Ruston seems appropriate, especially since both sites already have polluted histories in commmon. But what else to do? Wait ad-infinitum for a messianic cure-all? At some point, you just have to pull the trigger and wince. Besides, administrative hemming and hawing makes other potential developers or investors wary and less likely to make proposals.
On the other hand, hurting an existing business while pursuing a questionable one seems unwise. Especially right now. The Murano contributes to our city in several admirable ways, no matter what detractors might say. Any business will have its critics. A bigger business will have several more.
R RR Anderson July 14, 2010
considering the empty dirt pits, accidental ‘green space’ and temporary parking lots in this city we are well on our way to being a visionary city 100 years from now. Possibly even 1000 years from now. I’m glad the Murano gangsters and their marrionette puppet union has our best interests 100 years from now at heart. In the meantime I’m sure they will enjoy to the fullest extent their opulent 1980’s Sheraton monopoly and city handouts.
A bird in hand is not better than two in the bush for the next 100 years (possibly).
L lostinlosangeles July 14, 2010
I still think a SXSW type festival is the messianic cure-all. Look what it did for Austin, a town that, not long ago, entirely WAS a bombed out dirt pit. Sht, today its a contender. Tacoma could be a total contender, but falling into gumption traps like talking about a stupid hotel which, whether it gets built or not, will have absolutely no effect on the constant tidal waves of cultural mediocrity that wash over the ENTIRE nation (except of Colbert’s).
There needs to be talk about a NXNW, not a stupid hotel. If a NXNW festival can take over Tacoma like SXSW took over Austin, then the mediocre salmon slaying eagle will have finally landed on the banks of the Foss. I think the reason a NXNW isn’t working in Portland, and won’t work in Seattle is because there isn’t a good spot, or all the spots are taken by other sht that is bringing in revenue.
But the Tacoma dome and area around that is perfect for NXNW. The music history is there, the film buffs are there, the media heads are here, everything is there in the Northwest, it’s just not focused and amplified.
Let them build the damn hotel, it’ll be just one more place to put people who will bring in $100 million a year once someone gets there head out of their ass and just do what Austin is doing to build a levy against the forces of Nowheretown USA.
R RR Anderson July 14, 2010
Where were you guys with the concern about tacoma’s beauty-face-100-year-nowheretown & backroom permitting shenanigans when Darth Vader built the NWDC on the footprint of the tideflat slaughterhouse? You sicken me.
L lostinlosangeles July 14, 2010
Damn there was a slaughter house on the land the NWDC sits? I’d hate to be one of Darth Vader’s hamsters in that place. Ground like that can only produce one thing: the spawn of if Zuul from Ghostbusters and that dick of an evil spirit from Poltergeist fked and had a cenobite baby. I bet the detainees are being sucked into the walls an prolapsed out of the ceilings on an hourly basis.
L lostinlosangeles July 14, 2010
“Couldn’t one argue that just about every US city has always looked the same?”
Just because everything looks the same doesn’t make it ok as you began to point out with this:
“I’m not saying that we shouldn’t aim for something better than mediocre.”
No but obviously the alternative isn’t working and hasn’t been working for generations. So don’t be afraid to face the horror and just admit that everything is crap.
“But I think that any comparative term such as “mediocre” depends on its comparison, as others have pointed out.”
So what is it’s comparison? The rest of the world? The rest of the world is crap too. There are only pockets of the extraordinary surviving around the world and when they produce something, the sht sells because it’s rare. Last time I checked awards are not given out usually for being mediocre except the grammys. So perhaps to find a comparison one must first have a common knowledge grasp on what is not mediocre. I think not being mediocre is simply just being honest about your defects. Cobain, Van Gogh etc all very aware and forthcoming about their defects. Amurka has a stinking reputation of absolutely NOT wanting to acknowledge it’s defects, or at least not trying to find strength in them.
I think RR has a point of maintaining a strong speculative view on what the defects are that cause problems and how the opposite of the messianic cure-all is thus time and time again, what are we up to now RR? 100 years? being ignored in favor of the Shitraton approach. I say its time to at least exercise the First and hang out around said dirt pit. But take your time designing the signs, I don’t want to see any bootleg drawings or other indications that most tacomaphiles are utterly talentless. This kind of contradicts what I said about knowing your defects and using them to your advantage but the formula to win is not to display you are the weakest port in the sound. Because then when you lose to the Shitraton, you lose in style. Yeah, let RR design the signs, then all you have to do is show up to the dirt pit, put down your micro brew, hold up the sign and AT LEAST make a noble spectacle of yourself as apposed to the other bootleg poser spectacles you are not aware of you make.
R RR Anderson July 14, 2010
It’s funny that you should mention SXSW. Did you know the closest thing Tacoma had was a festival dedicated to blue grass called ‘wintergrass’ that had been calling Tacoma home since forever? They’re now operating out of Bellevue courtesy of our friends the Hotel Murano.
Yet, Murano defenders wrap themselves in the luzon bloody shirt and cry foul… how dare you. HOW DARE YOU!
H Heidi July 15, 2010
Speaking of our city’s land-give-aways, we should be asking why Tacoma gave public property to a privately owned prison (which is making a huge profit in our town and not paying much back)… and, unfortunately, we foresee more to come. GEO Group has purchased more industrial property on the south side of J Street and will very likely pressure the city to give them complete control of the road right-of-way and greenstrips. Contact your city representatives and oppose this before it comes to a vote.
V Vaio July 15, 2010
Yup, we’re off topic but it’s an important topic. The number of times Julie Anderson (and now Eric Anderson) has publicly stated the NWDC is “a federal facility we have no control over” (yet then approve all kinds of city exemptions and give-aways for GEO Group) WILL come back to haunt them. The city has complete jurisdiction over this private business in our town, but by letting GEO run un-checked we’re leaving ourselves vulnerable to huge economic liability… not to mention doing a terrible disserve to the souls being held there.
Didn’t Julie Anderson also claim (as a diss to Jan Shabro) that she would NEVER print her name in association with the auditor’s office on public mailings? Her name is now prominently printed on the office envelope’s return address… maybe she meant in reference only to voting materials but you can bet the reprinting of envelopes was with full intention of getting her name deeply embedded with the position prior to the next election (when she’ll actually have to be voted for instead of appointed). Those who have worked with her know that she either deliberately lies or doesn’t know what she’s talking about… either way you can’t trust what she says or does.
R RR Anderson July 15, 2010
@tacomathinker
Oh good heavens! Do you know if the people involved in that boating accident are OK? Their families are in our prayers tonight.
L lostinlosangeles July 16, 2010
Didn’t know the tide came up that high. Must have also washed all the native american boats out to sea. Oh wait a minute, thats right, history only began about 234 years ago.