Movement on the Murray Morgan Bridge

37 comments

• S Squid December 17, 2008

  I just hope that in addition to the fix that the bridge will get a coat of paint that makes it stand out (international orange, anyone? cobalt blue?) and/or lights. If we are going to spend that kind of money we should incorporate a passing nod to highlight the span’s aesthetic qualities.

• B Bob December 17, 2008

  Maybe they could shut off the god-awful lights under the bridge and use the money they’d save toward construction… or lights that are at least nice to look at…

• M Mofo from the Hood December 17, 2008

  Replace the lift cables: $3 million bucks.

  Okay, I have experience estimating manufacturing production costs for an unrelated industry, so I kind of understand that the coordination of materials and labor can be complex.

  But I’m really trying to imagine developing a justifiable $3 mil cost estimate to replace lift cables. Let’s see:
  (1) Gotta order some cables.
  (2) Then you gotta get a crew to replace the cables.
  (3) Rent some trucks and cranes.
  (4) Cable recycling fee for the city dump.
  (5) Formulate all of the above into a lengthy production schedule. Submit bid as a flat rate based on hourly rate with overtime, week-end and holiday pay, plus 10% mark-up.
  (6) Generate civic pride news stories…

  …just making an observation, not a judgement.

• J Jesse December 17, 2008

  Man, what a fantastic waste of money. This bridge goes nowhere now. Tear it out and spend the extra $65 million on LID projects for DT Tacoma.

• R RR Anderson December 17, 2008

  It’s not a bridge to nowhere Jesse. It’s a valuable protest/march-blocking tool this city can use in times of distress.

  Imagine if all the detainees in the private prison were to break out this drawbridge is our last line of defense.

  

  We can’t afford NOT to fix it.

• R RR Anderson December 18, 2008

  who is the joker who hung the tire swing from the pilot house?

• S Squid December 18, 2008

  The crew is going to be furloughed UAW workers, hence the $3 mil.

• M Mofo from the Hood December 18, 2008

  I’m thinking that changing bridge cables is like changing a chain on a bicycle. You need a hammer and a screwdriver and a crescent wrench and a can of 3-in-1 oil and a can of beer.

• S siwel December 18, 2008

  Not quite like changing the chain on a bike. One of the several things that make this bridge unique is that most of the weight of the draw span is carried by the cables and counterbalances at all times. Only about 15 percent of the load of the center span is carried on the piers when the bridge is its operational position. It will take a bit of cleverness to replace these cables.

• J Jesse December 18, 2008

  This comment from the TNT article:

  “This bridge is being saved so the property on the east side of the waterway will remain valuable to a certain port commissioner. Drive east on 11th street sometime. It is a dead end. Tear down the bridge.”

  Interesting. I was wondering how anyone in thier right mind would put $82 million into this rusty erector set to nowhere. Geez, think of all Tacoma could do with $82 million!!! Anyone know where Tacoma’s wish list would start? I’d say:
  1. $4 mil toward the Elks club bldg and spanish steps to make it feesable for a developer to finish it.
  2. The extra money (now 1/2 price due to the levy that just passed)needed to complete streetcar to Tacoma General. Price???
  3. $6 mil to expand the arboretum (sp?) at wright park to make it a real tourist attraction.
  4. Offer 1/2 the cost of LIDs paid on Tacoma Ave and around the rest of DT.
  Anything else? How much monet would that all be so far?

  Get my drift here? Kill that bridge!!!

• D Davest December 18, 2008

  If the bridge does get restored, then maybe we can get some more development going on over there. It’d be a good place for some tech startups. by the time the bridge is ready to go, the economy should be turned around and we’ll be ready to capitalize on the next growth spurt.

• C Cromletch McHammer December 19, 2008

  The bridge is as much of an icon of Downtown Tacoma as the Narrows Bridges or the T-dome or even the SR-509 cable-stay bridge.

  Granted, much money could be spent elsewhere but we gotta do something about our crumbling infrastructure. The 11th street bridge is infinitely more useful than the old Elks lodge.
  Don’t forget, over 44,000 people work in the port. Reliable infrastructure there is a bit more important than vanity projects.

• J Jesse December 19, 2008

  Let’s hear from those that miss using the bridge to get to work. Has the closing of the MM Bridge in 2007 really inconvenienced your life? Let’s hear it…

  and… vanity projects, as you say, attract population, business, and investment. That means stuff to do, places to live, and jobs to be had. Who wants to live in the uglier parts of town?

  I’m just saying, I watched the Pearl Ditrict explode in Portland, from the front lines. People with money, influence, and connections (those who can get things done for Tacoma) aren’t going to be attracted to a trashy town. You have to be prepared for success before you can achieve it.

  For some reason, this money-pit bridge to nowhere appauls me. I can’t really explain it. I just want the best for our fair city and I don’t think this project gets us close to that. In fact, it diverts away money for real projects.

• Y You're Welcome December 19, 2008

  I miss it when Bam Bam was over there. The new location is over polished and sterile.

  I miss all of those cool little import stores that I used to go to. I can’t figure out to get there anymore.

  I miss tooling around the rehab store.

  I grew up in this town and I love that bridge. I want to see it saved and I want see what the future holds with the 11th street bridge in good working condition.

  Why would the city invest in an overpriced private building? Especially now, 30 years later.

  Why even should more of our tax dollars go to one single downtown project?

• J John Sherman December 19, 2008

  With 44,0000-people working in the port; it follows, somebody must have a story to tell about the East 11th Street corridor roadway across the tideflats; for example, Port of Tacoma closing E. 11th Street, new 509 roadway that replaced the old llth St bridge, Tacoma broke and broken Hylebos Bridge also on E. 11th Street, and what value the new E. Dock Street road project and E. ‘D’ Street that spans railroad tracks and now allows cars to drive between both sides of the Thea Foss Waterway, so somebody must have a story to tell right-here just how, in their opinion, City of Tacoma has always supported the E. 11th Street corridor roadways for the Tacoma Citizens and the 44,000-people that work in the port each day (according to (Cromletch McHammer #13 Supra).

  Stories please. Thanks.

• T Thorax O'Tool December 19, 2008

  “Let’s hear from those that miss using the bridge to get to work. Has the closing of the MM Bridge in 2007 really inconvenienced your life? Let’s hear it…“

  I’ll take the bait.
  I work in the port. When the MM was open, I could make it to work in under 10 flat. I always made excellent time regardless of the weather.

  Now I’m stuck either
  1) Going all the way down to Pac ave, then all the way down to East D, up and over that new overpass and down & around Supervalu… Going via 15th and Dock Street is about the same… either way, it added 15 more minuets each way to my commute.
  2) Going via 705/509, and having to make a left turn onto Portland Ave. I’m a pretty passive driver, and I frequently get stuck there (no light, remember) for 5-10 minuets until I can get across. Not only does this nullify the time I save by using the freeway, but it also inconveniences everyone who is behind me honking.

  And of course, don’t forget that there isn’t a manned fire station at the bottom of the bridge anymore. TFD and TPD’s response time into the port is affected as well.

  Should we save the bridge? Yes, not only for the convenience of port workers, but also because MM is a landmark of Tacoma, and let’s be honest… we need more than just 1 freeway overpass into the port.

• J John December 19, 2008

  The MM bridge should have been repaired long ago if not for the liberal democrat’s in power nearsightedness. We needed the convention center, SAP software for the city for $50M, etc, etc. T O’Tool is right. Fix it and move on. Stop wasted taxpayer money on pie in the sky special interest projects that stroke egos.

• J Jesse December 19, 2008

  So, anyone find any info on how much the traffic decreased (until it closed in 07’) on the MM Bridge since the 509 bridge opened?
  Wouldn’t that figure spell out if the bridge is needed? If it’s NEEDED, I’m all for it… but I doubt it.

  Thorax@17: I can see your first argument sorta (why go all the way to Portland ave instead of turning on D Street? Maybe I’m not picturing your commute right???) but I’m not buying your second point. 5-10 minutes to get across a street? C’mon.

• T Thorax O'Tool December 20, 2008

  It certainly isn’t always 5-10 to get across. Sometimes I get lucky enough to arrive there and am able to get right across.

  But me getting stuck for several minuets is common enough that I just don’t go that way.
  ~ When I say I’m a passive driver, I really mean it… I need to learn to be a bit more assertive ~

  Of course, this is just my experience. Anyone else work in the port? I can’t be the only blue collar guy here on 133.

• J John Sherman December 20, 2008

  With 44,0000-people working in the port; it follows, the City of Tacoma would have continued to staff the TFD fire station at the bottom of the bridge and let the Port of Tacoma create their own Port of Tacoma Police and Security agency to patrol and protect the few Port of Tacoma properties that they own and control within the Tacoma tide-flat areas as a Municipal Corporation.

  Something just does not write-well here as I write this? Could-it-be we are just misinformed about these Port of Tacoma side of the 11th Street Bridge (Murray Morgan Bridge) facts as people have presented here?

  And, Supervalu is one of the few private corporation businesses that continue have a Pierce Transit bus stop at their front door, so the best of transportation options available: http://www.piercetransit.org/schedules/60/60.htm

  So, why did the City of Tacoma abandon East 11th Street cross-tide-flats roadway and bridges during past years?

• J Jesse December 20, 2008

  Thorax@21: Don’t mean to be so harsh, I usually like your comments on here.
  John Sherman@21: I think business locations have become smaller over the last 100 years in the flats. Therefore, the lots are bigger (warehouses, etc. instead of Mom and Pops manufacturing business say)and the 509 freeway was necessary to make grow the flats area. 11th is outdated as a functional road through the flats.

  $82 million to fix the bridge and that doesn’t include lead abating it (huge expense alone) and repainting it… and if it’s a treasure and we’re fixing it for historical or nostalgia purposes, shouldn’t we light it for night time? Is it already lit? (I haven’t noticed) Oh, what about the maintenance? It is a machine really… those need maintenance. Are we over $100 million with the paint/lead abatement project alone on here???

  Oh ya, $100 million is half the quoted price for streetcars throughout Tacoma. Wasn’t a figure set at $200 million for that? The WHOLE streetcar system for ALL of Tacoma for $200 million. That includes rebuilding streets it’s on as they go.
  Money doesn’t grow on trees… just ask John@18.

• P P December 20, 2008

  Oh ya, $100 million is half the quoted price for streetcars throughout Tacoma.

  Comparing projects is always problematic. The buckets of money aren’t related and are rarely interchangeable. State allocations of federal bridge funds – a big part of the MM funding – can’t go to streetcars or anything else but a bridge. Similar is probably true of the rest of the money.

• M Mofo from the Hood December 20, 2008

  P @23 brought up an interesting point: the federal funds that are available for specific uses–in this case, bridge funds. In order to qualify for such money, a city needs three things: (1) a bridge, (2) someone smart enough to get the money from the feds, and (3) someone who knows how to make use of the money according to the feds contingencies.

  Do you now see the beautiful secondary quality of the MM Bridge or any bridge?

  How about just the concept of a bridge? The new Narrows Bridge, now a reality, has a beautiful secondary quality beyond its form and function–it’s a highway for access to federal funds.

  Wicked cynicism or real politics?

• J Jesse December 20, 2008

  P@23: I do know that one projects money sometimes (usually) can’t just be transferred to something else at the city’s discretion. I am merely pointing out what $100 million could be and how restoring an obsolete bridge is wasteful.

• C crenshaw sepulveda December 20, 2008

  Maybe the MM bridge can be turned into scrap that would provide the metal for the rails and cars for the new trolley system for Tacoma.

• J Jesse December 21, 2008

  You never know Crenshaw… I worked with the City of Portland as a client of mine when I was doing concrete sales back in 1999-2005. The gov’t knows how to launder money from one project to another… you’d be amazed. It’s how there’s light rail to the airport in Portland today. I won’t get into the details but it was never passed by voters and it happened through some crafty real estate deals and an election for “airport expansion” land.

• Y You're Welcome December 21, 2008

  Why can’t we have both?

  When we take one single project and put it on a pedestal and then whine and complain when anyone else tries to make improvements to anything else in the whole wide world, that attitude make people like me begin to resent the street cars. I truly believe in the bridge and the street car project! This is a great city with huge opportunities, but man, you street car people are become a thorn in every projects side. Quit it!

• Y You're Welcome December 21, 2008

  Wish I could go back and edit my typos. “I swear to drunk I’m not God.”

• T Thorax O'Tool December 21, 2008

  While superfluous redundancy is asinine, a certain amount of redundancy gives alternate travel routes.

  This is an extremely major flaw of modern suburban development, the use of feeder roads and one main drag. Look at any development from the last 25 years, and there tends to be a single road in and out. Thus, traffic sucks (especially in larger ones) and if the main road is out, it’s SOL.

  The grid pattern in older cities (like Tacoma, Seattle, Everett) is superior because you have tons of ways around. If 19th is closed, I can think of a dozen other ways to get to St Joe’s… as can an ambulance driver. If we want healthy urban growth instead of the scraggly suburban kind, keeping the city to a grid and having multiple alternative routes is essential… especially vital infrastructure like bridges.

  Having a single bridge across into the port, even though it’s a freeway, is a folly. While there are alternate routes like Dock Street, Port of Tacoma Rd, Alexander, Milwaukee, etc, only Dock is even halfway reasonably accessible from North/Downtown/Central/South Tacoma. Only Fife, East and NE Tacoma really have the roads in the Port as a reasonable alternative. Having a non-freeway option is vital for the potential growth and non-car alternatives. You can’t really bike over 509 (I see some do it, but I’d be scared out of my mind… cars whizzing by at 70 mph a few feet away should scare any reasonable person), you certainly can’t walk over it and there’s no good way to put any kind of light rail/street car on the bridge (it is a freeway, after all). You can do all those with the MM.

  Besides, look forward. One of the potential things in the pipeline is the land east of the Foss (up to East D). There is a real possibility that could be re-zoned in the fairly near-future for multi-use like the Dock Street side of the Foss is. If we want more development along the Foss, we gotta have some way yo get across besides 509 and Dock Street’s 1 lane each way.

  It may cost nearly $100M to repair the bridge, but what will the cost be to tear it down and then decide that we need one after all in 2025 and build a new one?

• T Thorax O'Tool December 21, 2008

  

  Sorry ‘bout the triple post, but one more thing before I forget:

  At least for me, the bridge does have some sort of symbolism. The MM is symbolic of Tacoma. It’s a bit gritty and well worn, it’s aesthetics come from it’s function. Neither the city nor the bridge were designed to be “pretty” in the Seattle/Bellevue gentrified sense, they’re beautiful because of what they actually are.
  Talking about tearing it down is just wasteful, something Seattle would do just to appease a bunch of yuppies who think it isn’t pretty enough.
  …both have seen better days. But don’t cast things to the wayside when some TLC can go a very, very long way.
  We have 6 remarkable bridges in this city, it would be a shame to see the oldest of them be torn down or left to rot.

  * For those wondering, the 6 bridges are:
  Narrows 2 and 3, the MM, the SR-509 cable-stay, the one on E 34th that goes over SR-7 and the Proctor Bridge over Puget gulch.
  BTW, I challenge anyone to get down into the gulch and look up at the bridge and not be impressed.

• R Randy Lewis December 22, 2008

  Jesse, you’re entitled to your opinion but please stop making stuff up. The $80 million, not $100, cost of a full rehab of the bridge includes painting and lead abatement. Traffic counts on the MMB certainly declined after 509 was reloacted, but that is not the reason to abandon the bridge. It is ALAWYS a mistake to abandon an arterial coordior in an urban area. (WSDOT sold off the right of way for 167 from Puyallup to Tacoma decades ago. Wanna bet they wish they hadn’t now?) There isn’t much on the east side of the Foss now but there will soon be Urban Waters and that (plus having the bridge reopened) will lead to $500 million plus of private development on the east side. For that kind of payoff- new development and a restored arterial cooridor- an $80 million investment is a good deal. (And so are streetcars, but that is another story.)

• J Jesse December 22, 2008

  Randy@33: I was unaware that the $82 million cost included paint and lead abatement as no article talks about if the bridge is slated to be painted/lead abated or not. It is a multi-million dollar cost for which you would think it’d be mentioned since the “small dollar” $3 million dollar cable replacement is.

  So it’s “just” $82 million wasted.

  And no, 11th street/MM Bridge is no longer a corridor even remotely comparable to HWY 167 or any other corridor for that matter.

  If there are future plans in the works for doing something of substance on the other side of that bridge that makes the bridge needed, I AM ALL FOR IT. As of now, $82 mil is a waste and I don’t see why the Port would want DT creeping over the flats when there’s too much empty spaces DT right now. What’s the plan?

• J John Sherman December 22, 2008

  Randy @ 33: You sound informed about Tacoma bridges and their benefits to the Tacoma Citizens; for example, keep a arterial corridor through the central business district; as a result, to add more traffic congestion to peoples’ drive through the central Tacoma business district and not stopping to shop at this business districts shops and stores as they drive-on-by over the Murray Morgan Bridge (if it was open for travel), but just-what-about the repair, maintenance, or replacement costs required to the Tacoma Eells Street Bridge—-the bridge that connects Tacoma Puyallup Avenue to Eells Street and connects traffic to Pacific Highway East roadway and is kind-of-like an elevated roadway and bridge for vehicle traffic type structure. Just thinking about my past memory of bent and broken steel supporting members above the roadway traffic below.

  So, the question presented: When will the Eells Street Bridge begin its bridge structure repairs or replacement, and where will the money come from; for example, City of Tacoma for this urban traffic corridor future need or State of Washington, and how much money will each grant beginning on what specific date for these Eells Street Bridge re-construction activities to begin?

  Seems-like everybody knows a lot about the broken and abandon Murray Morgan Bridge, but everbody has memory-lapse or wants to forget about other Tacoma traffic bridges like Eells Street Bridge that remain open with vehicle traffic use today, and I wonder how many cars traverse the Eells Street bridge each day? Anybody have a vehicle count for the Eells Street Tacoma Bridge?

• R RR Anderson December 22, 2008

  when the Boe Memorial Ball Park is build over the sucking chest wound known by civilians as the tank farm, the MM bridge will be super important.

  Then all the people here who asked questions like ‘why’ and ‘where the money come from’ will look really stupid.

• R Randy Lewis December 22, 2008

  Jesse @34: $80 mil, not $82. And not wasted. I did not compare the MMB to 167 other than to make the point that it is ALWAYS a mistake to abandon an arterial corridor in an urban area because at some point in the future history has shown the need for the cooridor returns. There are many, many good reasons why an $80 mil rehab of the MMB is a good investment- traffic, public safety, emergency medical, economic development, and on. You say you favor the rehab when there is development on the east side but that development won’t occur without the bridge.

  John @35: I doubt too many people in Tacoma know the name Eels Street. You are right that the Puyallup River Bridge (as it is more commonly called) is in poor shape. It is my understanding that the City has already received some grant funding for restoration on part of the bridge and is seeking additional grant money and perhaps funds from the proposed stimulus package for additional work. As you might guess, it is an expensive project as it is a very long bridge with a lot of traffic on it.

• D David Boe December 22, 2008

  RR@36 – I ain’t dead yet…

• S Squid December 22, 2008

  Just want to say for those wondering about developments on the east side of the Foss that are industry-compatible and economically constructive, there is not only Urban Waters happening, but a quiet little development on East D Street that is going to be the Tacoma Youth Marine Center. TYMC is happening and may actually get done before Urban Waters. A bridge at 11th St makes it accessible for kids coming by mass transit.