New Drawings of the D to M Street Project

Andrew October 19, 2009

Wow. Looks like we are losing tons of development potential underneath that freeway… I am sure lots of people would love to live under there.

Tacoma1 October 20, 2009

Andrew
Don’t let facts get in the way when folks have already made up their minds.

Hopefully this issue gets resolved real soon. I for one am ready to get on the train more, and I’m sure that So. Tacoma is too.

Chris K. October 20, 2009

Oh that’s just rich, Andrew. I agree with Mar… Tacoma1.

Let’s get the shovels in the ground while the feds are offering us the money to get the job done.

crenshaw sepulveda October 20, 2009

I’m working to create a theme park under the freeway. Hobo Country Safari. Experience the hobo life up close. Shopping cart rides. The Tent of Mysteries. Family discouts, of course. Don’t forget to visit the wine garden and savor a little Hobo Stew. That is a stew that hobos eat, not a hobo named Stew.

Not the first Andrew October 20, 2009

Why can’t it be a stew made of hobos? That’d solve the homeless problem downtown…

Jesse October 20, 2009

Call me crazy but I don’t see a problem with the pictures above. I was envisioning a 80 foot wide berm. At least they have SOME respect for Tacome to show us what it’ll look like.

geronimo October 20, 2009

What economic potential Nick? 26th Street from Pacific to C St.? Not exactly Times Square. D & C will be at grade, so all you lose is A St. and the parking lot underneath 705. Am I missing something?

Tacoma1 October 20, 2009

Jesse,
Your not crazy. The pictures look nice, and are a vast improvement over what is there now. I’m a little confused/concerned about all of the switch backs on the one pedestrian path. Maybe it’s just the perspective of the photo, I dunnoh. And I would eventually like to see native trees and plantings where ever possible. But those are minor nitpicks that can be addressed, I think.

Nick
Sorry, but you can’t ruin what never was. Also, the post and beam plans all call for narrowing the rail right of way. Talk about ruining a cities economic future – if we do that, there won’t be any room for high speed rail in 20 years from now. What then? Let high speed rail skip Tacoma and go to Puyallup instead? Better yet, we tear down a bunch of wobbley posts and beams and put in a berm which WILL support a train.

I want whats best for Tacoma too. I was born here, and not leaving. Tacoma deserves true mass transit, and we don’t need to delay anymore. If we don’t like grassy berms, we can plant them. Apparently it takes an architect to come up with a multi million dollar solution to a problem, when $100,000 of native plants would look and function much better. Of course, this problem never was about transit solutions. It’s just a thinly disguised political football for our mayoral race.

Highwater October 20, 2009

A few comments:

1) The flowers pictured in these photos, if they are ever planted, last a year, max. Scotsbroom and blackberry will replace them.

2) The pedestrian walkway on A street looks like a great place to be trapped with some of the friendlier elements of our city.

3) When was the last time you saw a normal mother and child walking down So. Tacoma Way? (See the last re-visioning.) The last time I saw a mother and child walk that road, the mom was doing the meth walk while pushing a stroller.

I think it would be great if Sound Transit put images of people who actually spend time walking in this area in the photos. It would certainly be quite the juxtaposition.

All of this looks like a big improvement over what is there now. I saw we hold Sound Transit to landscaping with longevity, preferably native plants, and improved security in the area, and call it good.

Douglas Tooley October 20, 2009

It is looking better and better, however note that there is not a single view in the above portfolio that shows any of the developable property.

They need a perspective from the North of the Armour building, plus better views of the block between ‘A’ street and Pacific from both sides. Also, nothing for the block between B and C.

It is good to see the habitat corridor opened up, a big improvement.

Douglas Tooley October 20, 2009

Note also that every perspective focuses on openings in the berm!

Tacoma1 October 20, 2009

It is great that the gulch is being preserved. The efforts of D.I.R.T. did expose the need to protect this area for wildlife habitat, and I do thank them for that.

Brick Layer October 20, 2009

Clad the bridge and it’s supports in brick and it will be an amenity rather than a metal rail bridge. The it’s a gateway to the brewery district.

broadweezy October 20, 2009

A few more notes from the peanut/public gallery:

- Generally, these simulations/visualizations don’t look too bad. Kinda sucks to lose some visual quality, but overall I’m not sure how you could make it better. Quality hydroseeding and landscaping in the simulations though.

- Holy huge intersection! The intersection @ S.Tacoma Way/Pacific seems like a lot of concrete for pedestrians to navigate through (slide 26). Pretty looking crosswalks though. I’m not a fan of the pedestrian treatment on South Tacoma Way. How come there’s no sidewalk on the eastbound side of S. Tacoma Way (slide 32/33)? So that means there’s no cross walk on the entire south leg of the intersection (slide 26) – doesn’t that produce even longer walking distances for peds in an already enlarged-intersection area?

- Lighting seems sparse, huge, and off-scale (slides 20/26/29/33). Especially given the wide crossing conditions for peds at the intersection.

- Generally (and I know these simulations are meant to be purely conceptual), the design and simulations seem to lack a sense of the Brewery District. From a pedestrian perspective, there seems to be a lot blue sky and gray concrete everywhere in these slides. It seems like the walls along the pedestrian ramp (slide 20) could benefit from public murals or architectural color treatments along the wall. The walking path itself could also benefit from stamped concrete patterns or artistic treatments (and I know that’s getting knit-picky but I’m just putting it out there).

- The intersection @ S.Tacoma Way/Pacific and general area where improvements occur could benefit from architectural/neighborhood treatments such as neighborhood signs or banners that introduce visitors/drivers/pedestrians to the idea that they’re in the “Brewery District.”

- Finally, the steel bridge itself screams for some commissioning of public art or mural or representation of some sort (a big ‘ol Rainier/Hydleberg mural would be kick ass!) – or basically something that otherwise says “hey, you’re in a place called Tacoma/Brewery District and this structure/steel bridge isn’t just another peice of bucolic infrastructure!”

So…yeah.

RR Anderson October 20, 2009

I would like to see an option in pink concrete. Sound Transit is trying to screw the people of Tacoma with grey concrete. I bet if Seattle wanted pink concrete they’d get it and a free pink-colored deep boring tunnel machine to match.

This is just horrible. I am officially withdrawing any endorsements for tacoma mayor. I may change my mind though later.

Good lord has anyone checked to see if these designs creep into parking lot “A” at the Tacoma Dome? Cuz that could F up any obama bucks.

tacoma1 October 20, 2009

@RR
Looks like you’ve got all the issues covered. Nice job.

Bflint October 20, 2009

Looks like some good design elements with some much needed street improvements. Congratulations to Dan Fear and the gang for saving the gulch and getting other improvements.
One concern I see is the lack of amenities close to the new improvements. The curved walkway would be a great asset if it was surrounded by coffee shops and books stores and other pedestrian focused businesses – similar to the steps at UWT. But in isolation I can see it being an expensive no mans land – Like Tollefson plaza.

Douglas Tooley October 20, 2009

FWIW, it looks like Tacoma1 is not Marty Campbell, though Marty does have an email that uses that handle.

Nick October 20, 2009

@geronimo indeed you are missing something:

Geologically, geographically, and transit-ally speaking, this is apparently the next most ideal place to build once the downtown core is filled in. It’s nice and flat, with bedrock farther down than on the hillside (meaning one can dig down far enough to build high), and close to almost every form of regional transit.

Over time, downtown will naturally expand this direction until it hits a barrier. That barrier can be this berm thing, or it could be I-5.

I guess I just see this as a parent squandering their kid’s college savings, saying their kid isn’t guaranteed to go to college, so why waste money on something that isn’t a sure thing? It’s just a “what if.” In the same way, Tacoma seems to be setting itself up for failure. Why cut ourselves short? Sure we may not see dense development here for another 30 or 40 years, but why not do everything we can to set ourselves up for the best possible outcome? It sure seems like there are plenty of other interests working to achieve precisely the opposite already…

Dan October 20, 2009

The City Council should not be voting on any Sound Transit Agreements until they have looked closely the new cost estimates presented by the Dome District. Their proposed plan will be saving approximately 30 Million dollars.

This Sound Transit project should not be costing tax payers so much money and Sound Transit’s current design is not appropriate for Tacoma.

Sound Transit says the project will loose funding already in place, however the money saved by lowering the project costs will offset any lost grants or funding. Also, our elected officials will work hard to save any funding that might be lost due to project corrections.

The Post and Beam option being presented to the City Council is already designed and simple to build. Any project delays will be offset because it will be easier and quicker to build using the Post and Beam plan. If you’re interested in this project attend the City Council meeting this evening and let your opinions be heard.

Tacoma1 October 20, 2009

Dan,
That’s pure nonsense and obstructionist malarkey. The city council needs to move forward and select the best plan for all of Tacoma, and for the regional transit system. If the city council selects P & B and it can be built cheaper, great! I’m sure that Mr. Stone will be able to submit his bid to ST at the appropriate time. If ST’s cost estimates are way high for P&B, then since ST assumes that the berm would be $1 to $4 M cheaper than P&B, it stands to reason that Mr. Stone’s bid for the berm would be $31 – $34 M cheaper too.

David Boe October 20, 2009

Another good chuckle in the front page today – about those folks in Lakewood worrying about the Amtrak trains blowing through their community without even stopping to pick-up any passengers – all made possible by this Sounder extension of new rail cutting a suburban path though a derelict, but still promising, bit of urban fabric in Downtown-T in order to provide service to South Tacoma (at the edge of the So. Tacoma Mixed-use Center – not in the center of it no less) and on to the great suburban City of Lakewood. And this is called ‘Regional Planning?’ The news is just getting more hilarious each day.

David Boe October 20, 2009

That’s right Tacoma1 – in your own words – ‘If you can’t discredit the message, discredit the messenger.’

Andrew October 21, 2009

Chris and Tacoma1…I was speaking with tongue and check. Do you really think I would think there is development potential under the freeway?

Tacoma1 October 21, 2009

Andrew
I fully understood where your tongue was, and am in full agreement.

crenshaw sepulveda October 21, 2009

Hey, I have that space under the freeway staked out for my Hobo Country Safari amusement park. Plenty of development potential, I assure you.

David Boe October 21, 2009

Actually, there are many examples of uses ‘under’ railroads. Adjoining developments to an elevated railway have used these covered areas for storage, parking, and if you go to the South Bank of London, the ‘arches’ are used for shops, offices, museums, and alike. Seems to me public investment should error on what ‘can be’ for a district, not just confine oneself to ‘what it currently is.’ But an ‘amusement park’ is good creative thinking crenshaw. I think the proposed ST skateboard park at the ‘A’ Street underpass is also an excellent start (a shared skate/ped connection so to speak). It is supposed to be a skate park right (as I didn’t see any photo-shopped ‘No skateboarding signs’ in the eye candy renderings)?

RR Anderson October 21, 2009

Daniel Smith, the best art store in Seattle is under a freeway. So eat it.

crenshaw sepulveda October 21, 2009

David Boe, if they don’t utilize some of that under freeway space for a skate park it would be criminal. What a perfect solution for making some of that space productive and provide an attraction that people will come in from all over to use. Other uses would be a year round farmer’s market that would be under cover of the freeway above or an outdoor venue for movies and music under the same cover of the freeway. Getting people to use the space for something other than a hobo jungle would be great, but it will probably put a crimp in my plans for Hobo Country Safari.

Douglas Tooley October 21, 2009

Both the Dome District and the surrounding neighborhoods, with TPD, have the encampment problem under control here.

Personally, I’d like to see some sort of a BMX or Mountain bike type facility, like in Seattle, under the Freeway, prolly next to a path connecting the Thea Foss to the Dome and Lemay.

Thorax O'Tool October 22, 2009

this still makes me ill.

It’s OK to put in offices in London and art stores in Seattle… those cities can have cool stuff. But Tacoma, well. The redheaded stepchildren can have sh*t and like it.

We’ll just get a 10’ chain link fence with barbed wire and KEEP OUT signs.

Jesse October 22, 2009

A food-cart food-court! Or… an urban nursery. Or… a Tacoma Gnome art piece. Or skate boarding/BMX park… or a Saturday Market complete with a “roof”. Or… a put-put golf course. Or… climbing walls. Or… a ropes course. Or… a streetcar round-house. The possibilities are endless.

David Boe October 22, 2009

Actually, the more I look at this ‘slice of a suburban infrastructure’ – especially at the 16 deep recessed South Tacoma Way and Pacific Avene intersection, the more I think that the berm needs to be a terraced landscape with a system of interconnected community gardens. The reality of these ‘left-over’ bits of real estate ever being developed is probably slim to nil given the odd shape of the property, being at the toe of a berm with an active railway line ‘above’, being sunk in a hole relative to the surrounding context, being a miserable place to be a pedestrian (can you imagine crossing the street here – it will make S. 19th and Pacific look intimate by comparison), and all of the vacant land in Downtown that does not have all of these issues, etc… – so lets at least make this mess productive for growing food (community gardens have also shown to reduce crime in open park areas as they are areas that have ownership and are self-policed). MetroParks has a waiting list for their gardens around town – so lets build them into the plan. Another thing that needs to change is all the cute antique railings and street furniture – please – it is just a visual definition of ‘twee.’ And last, but not least, is we need a name for this swath. I am thinking maybe the Baarsma Berm (Bill likes to name urban design cock-ups after former mayors – ala Tollefson Plaza) – or maybe Ye Olde Baarsma Berme to give it a bit of cache.

Narndt October 22, 2009

@David Boe

Excellent work. The “Baarsma Berm” in honor of Mayor Bill Bermsma.

RR Anderson October 23, 2009

Baarsma Baffler Berm.

Hey remember DIRT ALERT! Make sure to use raised beds and TAGRO for your vacant land gardens.

35 comments