Rethinking Downtown Tacoma
The following tweet appeared on twitter last night:
Tacoma should rethink it’s downtown. Preferably before everyone leaves.
It was posted by Janine Terrano, the CEO of Topia Technology, and it got us talking about what it means to rethink our downtown.
So…What is the current thought that needs to be re-thunk?
And more importantly, what is it that Tacoma should be thinking?
Filed under: General
126 comments
N Nick October 7, 2009
I don’t know, what with the recent change in parking requirements, and the whole downtown master plan thing it seems to me we are just mid-re-thinking right now. We’re not there yet, but we’re moving there.
That being said, it sure seems to me our biggest problem seems to be our city council. I don’t know that it’s the people, perhaps it is how our city government is structured. Whatever the reason, every piece of news coming out of 747 market st. further enforces my belief that our council is completely out of touch with where the rest of Tacoma (read: the people who elected them) wants to go.
D David Koch October 7, 2009
I think the biggest boost possible for the downtown would be to connect all of Tacoma’s neighborhoods to the downtown with Streetcars. Streetcars are pointless if they’re not pointing neighborhoods towards the downtown.
Also, how can we encourage the filling of all those empty lots? What if we set up a system of splitting up the vacant lots into smaller divisions so people with less capital and get started on narrower tall buildings. That would have the added bonus of passing a number of storefronts in a single block as apposed to one large front of a building you’ll never go into. Once downtown develops a sustained pedestrian friendly environment, larger businesses will be drawn and kept there.
I can’t emphasis enough the importance of a full streetcar system. Buses are everywhere and go anywhere, but street cars are literal/physical extensions of your destination. A piece of downtown would be passing through your neighborhood waiting for you and you’d see it every day and think of downtown. You can get on it knowing exactly where it goes. You know that it will be waiting to take you back whenever you’re ready to go. You can get on the Streetcar when you’re tired or drunk without worry. When with friends, you can continue conversations/interactions/fun without needing cars. If you want to visit your friend in another neighborhood, downtown would send you a streetcar, pull you in, then send you out to your destination. It would become a part of what it means to be in Tacoma and become who you are as a resident. If there is a trolley, you’re always just a step away from downtown. It is no longer a trip to go downtown. It’s like walking down the block. There’s no hesitation, no planning. Tacoma’s relationship with downtown will change and downtown will be forced to suffer the wonderful consequences.
6 6ther October 8, 2009
Turn the convention center into a shopping center.
S Shannon October 8, 2009
I think we need more affordable housing for first time young buyers – get the young people living downtown then support is required (i.e. retail) . . .and then it becomes a “hip” place to live – think “Pearl District” in Portland, Belltown in Seattle. The problem with most of the condos that were built downtown is that they were targeting move down buyers instead of first time buyers. The price differential between homes and condos was not enough to lure most potential “downsizing” buyers. The Marcato has it right now – units for $99,000. The condo model that has worked well in Seattle and Portland is retail on the first floor and underground parking. Get the young people in and the change can begin.
T Tacoma1 October 8, 2009
I like David’s idea with the street cars. It will put us on the map as a place for young progressive thinkers to live.
The streetcar routes will have to be well thought out and the cars need to be given signal priority, otherwise they’ll be stuck in traffic with everyone else. It will take some sacrifice and compromise from everyone to get it done.
T Tacoma1 October 8, 2009
I meant the traincars need signal priority, not the automobile type cars.
N Nick October 8, 2009
I’m definitely on board with the streetcar network. I’ve been dying for that to happen since Morgan first got started with Tacoma Streetcar. What’s it going to take to move from talk to action?
We’ve been talking about it for a very long time, and it feels like we just need to figure out how to move to the next step.
T tressie October 8, 2009
the only rethinking that needs to be done is: What is so funny about Peace Love & Understanding?
Streetcars Meatcars…make downtown a place for middle class folks …put stuff here that isn’t a replicant of the mall…Subsidize and treasure the small business …the arts…the clever…the opposite of banal, and boring, and sanitized.
D downtown resident October 8, 2009
Seems to me that Tacoma should be working on the basics — repaving streets with potholes bigger than my dog, taming out of control vegetation on city land, etc. Anyone drive up S. 21st St (between Pacific and Yakima) lately?
Tacoma can do better than that.
P pegsterdtown October 8, 2009
What happened to Freighthouse Square? I recently went there and besides the food court there were only 5 stores open in the whole place.
T TacomaThinker October 8, 2009
I guess my name begs a comment, so here it goes… Urban Planning is a very complex web of cause and effect and it takes years of study followed by years of experience to understand the web. I think Tacoma is active on this level. Problem is, with so many opposing opinions someone or some group (for better or worse) stops another group from it’s goal. It’s hard to sacrifice the existing good of a few for the possible good of many. It could fail. So if you want something done – have a plan to deal with failure and go gather voices.
M Morgan October 8, 2009
We should be thinking it’s time to elect leaders who will make building a streetcar system the #1 priority! Our elected city officials need to provide stronger vision for city staff.
November elections are right around the corner!
D David Koch October 8, 2009
The city council we have is rather good and very responsive when you actually contact them. We live in a representative system. That means we elect people to do what we want them to do, but they cannot know what we want unless we tell them. They will be getting countless demands from countless people/departments/organizations that are already actively engaging them. The council can/will do nothing without us demanding they take certain actions.
That’s where Nick@7 comes in. He starts gathering supporters and starts meeting with their council representatives to talk about how we can make it a reality. But first he needs to encourage Morgan@12 to not wait until elections or expect the council to fix everything and get him on his Streetcar Committee. I’m interested in your committee Nick. If you call me, I’ll participate. 215-435-5578
S Steve October 8, 2009
The momentum has swung away from growth and improvement downtown, and it has swung toward abandonment and decay. The City has been envisioning a vibrant downtown for at least 20 years now and outside of the area around the University it really has not been accomplished downtown. I wonder if the real issues are deeper than master plans and streetcar/bus/bike options. I wonder if this notion of a city with a dense downtown is even possible in the historic location of downtown Tacoma. If a person is locating a business in Tacoma and their highest priority is transportation options they would probably locate down near the University or Freighthouse; if their highest priority were things like views/restaurants/neighborhood they might locate in Old Town close to the waterfront. Why would someone choose to locate in the historical “downtown”? I can’t think of a good reason. With the closure of the Morgan Bridge, the only link to the tideflats is now down at 21st. I think that the area from about 6th to 17th is becoming a weird dead zone that is sparsely populated with workers (and yet has no available parking…quite a feat when you think about it). The growing regional center in Seattle is also going to make it very hard and maybe impossible to pursue a traditional vision of downtown with 20 story buildings, parking garages, mass transit hubs, etc. There are good reasons why Tacoma was centered where it was in 1900, but I think a lot of those reasons are no longer valid/important.
It feels to me like the focus of most “visions” for Tacoma are still dominated by an attempt to be something that Tacoma really is not. Tacoma is never going to be Seattle or Portland, that die was cast many decisions/events ago. And yet there are some real assets that could be used to “anchor” small growing urban areas of higher density. The potential in the area of the UW and Freighthouse is absolutely huge – light rail, commuter rail, students on the street, restaurants, a waterfront park and a potential sports venue all within walking distance. I can’t think of anyplace else in Tacoma that can offer that. And UW will continue to grow, no matter the competence of the City Council. I know that hockey has tried and failed in the dome before but how much more success would some sports team have there if that neighborhood was redeveloped such that large numbers of workers could walk to games after work? The last time sports was tried in the dome was pre-UW as I recall, or at least very early in the UW development.
The re-thinking that I believe should happen relative to downtown is that “downtown” maybe should not be where it has always been – it sure seems to me that despite everyone’s effort it is moving away anyway. Maybe that’s fine, and maybe instead of trying to make it stay where it’s always been, we should be trying to find ways to locate people and activities closer to the features in the city that they truly value.
N NSHDscott October 8, 2009
DK@2 put it well: “Streetcars are pointless if they’re not pointing neighborhoods towards the downtown.” The Tacoma Link is a great backbone to a future streetcar network, but it’s pretty useless now as a commute tool for anyone who lives in a Tacoma neighborhood. They still need their cars, except for the few diehards who can deal with the inefficiencies of the bus system. A well-designed streetcar network would allow so many more people to leave their cars at home, whether they are using it to commute to a downtown Tacoma job, a job outside of Tacoma where you’d take streetcars to the Tacoma Dome station and transfer to train or bus, or for downtown shopping, entertainment, etc. I’m all for it.
I’m also all for fixing our streets. They hold our neighborhoods back more than anything — not because they suck to drive/bike/walk on, which they do, but because they give our neighborhoods the impression of neglect. Succeeding, desirable cities don’t let their streets go to hell.
Last, we really need to stop talking about retaining and adding jobs to downtown Tacoma, and just try something. I know that a wrong move could be very harmful. But, whatever we’re doing now isn’t working, and we need to try something else. I wish I knew what it was. We thought museums would do it. Light rail. Condos. All that development and we still have nowhere near the private investment as our northern neighbors, and too many of our citizens have to commute north to find a quality job. That simply must change. Would a streetcar network do it? I think it has as good of a chance as anything else. Could the new vision of downtown Tacoma be that we make our neighborhoods more desirable to live in by building a streetcar network and repaving the roads, and those improvements lead to a better countrywide perception of Tacoma as a cool place to live, and it is this that attracts employers and developers? If it didn’t work, at least we’d have nice neighborhoods!
So there it is in a nutshell, IMHO: We ‘rethink downtown’ by improving the desirability of our neighborhoods by connecting them to downtown with streetcars and by repairing our embarassing streets, thereby improving our reputation, and doing so will bring improvements to downtown.
PS It sure would also help our reputation if we could get rid of that pesky aroma for once and for all! It’s such a non-factor to people actually living in Tacoma (I hardly ever catch a whiff) but I think it kills our reputation.
M Mofo from the Hood October 8, 2009
I think it would be cool if there was a huge bronze replica of “The Thinker” placed somewhere downtown.
I think that Bronzeworks place up on South Fawcett St. hasn’t left Tacoma yet, so maybe I’ll ride my bike over there tomorrow with some rough sketches of my idea—-See what they think.
L lavarock October 8, 2009
Streetcars are useless unless they actually GO somewhere. I used to take the Link daily, and it was nice, but it stopped running by the time I was off work, and it didn’t go anywhere near home, up the hill. I would LOVE to see it go from 9th and Commerce (a pretty bad station position imo)to TCC up 6th st. However, I don’t see streetcars as high of a priority right now. Where would they get the money? Pierce Transit or ST3 would need to be passed to get it where it needs to go, and whatever money they have now should go towards street repavement, instead of oil with gravel ontop of it.
What the city should focus on is filling in the parking lots with buildings in downtown, get some new retail, increase the number of apartments instead of building hotels, and market itself as a CITY, and not as a suburb.
D David Koch October 8, 2009
Who let Steve in?
M Mofo from the Hood October 8, 2009
I feel it would be cool if there was a huge bronze replica of “The Thinker” placed somewhere downtown.
I feel that Bronzeworks place up on South Fawcett St. hasn’t left Tacoma yet, so maybe I’ll ride my bike over there tomorrow with some rough sketches of my feelings—-See how they feel.
G Gus October 8, 2009
Steve I think you make some good points. There seems to be this never-ending competition with Seattle that we will never win. I cannot count how many times I have heard that downtown will be the next Belltown in a few years. This is ridiculous; we need to find our own identity.
It seems that when I have out of town visitors there are two things that people notice about downtown; the smell and the threat of violent crime. Almost everyday I walk to work I see a new drugged out person yelling or fighting with imaginary enemies, picking up cigarette butts off of the ground and smoking them, or sleeping at the light rail stations. A few nights out of every month my wife and I are woken up by arguing or fighting on the streets downtown, and it seems we just sit and wait, figuring we will hear gun shots.
I would love to see more people and businesses downtown, but you have to give them a reason to come here. I think the idea of streetcars is great and it would be a great step forward for our city. However, for what reason would you take the streetcars to downtown? What is there to do? This place is a ghost town on weekend days. How many areas downtown would you feel safe having your wife or children walking alone?
I am also disappointed with the council but I can sometimes see reasons for delaying some projects. You cannot just build new, pretty things on top of, and around all of the crime, decay, and issues, this city has and hope that people will just stop noticing. It will come back to haunt you just like all of these condo buildings are doing now.
R Rich October 8, 2009
I think all you need to do is look at the Christmas decor in downtown on the street lamps to realize what the problem is. The decor, which from my understanding was purchased within the last few years, is a flashback to the 70’s……hence, the overall thinking of those in charge with the destiny of t-town. We need a flush of leadership and a new way of thinking if t-town is too have any chance.
N Nick October 8, 2009
“It feels to me like the focus of most “visions” for Tacoma are still dominated by an attempt to be something that Tacoma really is not.”
I agree, Tacoma’s identity is something that develops within, not from looking to and comparing with our neighbors. Instead of thinking “Portland has this” or “Seattle would do this” we should be discussing what WE want to do. This is our city, let’s build it into something that represents us. There’s nothing wrong with looking to other cities for inspiration, but let’s not get carried away and leave it at that.
F frizzlebee October 8, 2009
I’m all for creating an identity of our own. Take a look at Leavenworth. The town was dying, practically deserted, and by picking a theme for the entire town, it was completely rejuvinated! All we need to do is to pick a theme.
Looking at what we have already (1970’s Christmas decor), why don’t we become a disco/funk town. Perhaps we can be renowned for using rollerskates as public transportation. And, what would look better in Tollefson Plaza than a giant disco ball?
R RR Anderson October 8, 2009
My fellow citizens,
to long have we toiled to make downtown a downtown without redressing our grievances with our MAIN ARCH ENEMY, namely THE TACOMA MAUL.
Everyone knows deep down that it was they who kills and poisons us in the the ear as we sleep at night.
Join me, together we of downtown will link hands circle round the TACOMA MAUL and focus our cosmic mindstreams in the center of the building. Our positive energy united we will levitate the TACOMA MAUL off our contaminated soil, into the atmosphere.
Only then will downtown be liberated.
C CA October 8, 2009
For me it all keeps coming back to UWT. I think downtown should become a “college town,” and the city should pressure the state for more funding for UWT. On campus dorms, expanded footprint, more retail, more students, more classes and programs, etc… At this point in time, Tacoma simply CANNOT compete with Seattle and Bellevue for businesses. So lets fill our downtown with students and a vibrant university. I think this is our only option at this point in time.
R RR Anderson October 8, 2009
the college town is a wonderful idea.
M Mofo from the Hood October 8, 2009
I have travelled far and wide all the days of my life.
I have wandered through the humblest of villages and sped by motor car through the most grandiose metropolises.
But always, always wherever I travelled, I was to wistfully find that I had arrived either too late or too early.
C Chris K. October 8, 2009
Lot Subdivision
David (2) – Subdivision of large lots into smaller ones is a fantastic idea. We once had a conversation on Exit133 about how it was impossible to rebuild a building like the Luzon in downtown because of the parking requirements. Now that those are gone, this might be a good step to get buildings that we really want to see – with 30 foot storefronts and residential, office, and/or light industrial in floors above.
Streetcars
Let me say just one thing that I hope that some people catch on to. Back during the era of the streetcars, there was transit service on 6th Avenue – every SIX MINUTES. It was possible to catch a cable car every FOUR MINUTES that went from A st. all the way to the top of what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way along 11th St and 13th St. The streetcar system back then was 125 miles long and served 30,000,000 people each year. During the 50 year operation of the system from 1888 to 1938, we were given such unique neighborhoods as McKinley Hill, the Lincoln District, Stadium, the North Slope, Proctor, and 6th Avenue.
In the thirty years Pierce Transit has been working to “improve” transit service, we’re only at 15,000,000 riders a year, despite huge increases in population since 1939, service on 6th Avenue is only every 15 minutes if you’re lucky, and getting up Downtown Tacoma’s hills is not nearly as simple a task. Since 1979, we have seen the population of unincorporated Pierce County BALLOON – generating strip malls, big box stores, and areas devoid of any soul. Now, do we want more of the same, or do we look to the past for some tried and true methods that produce strong middle class neighborhoods and a healthy climate for small businesses?
Right now, Sound Transit has $80 million to build an extension of Tacoma Link. Pierce Transit has 50% of its sales tax authority to spare (0.3% – equating to ~$30 million / year) and a HUGE amount of bonding authority somewhere in the range of a half a billion dollars! The City is able to create a TBD or Transportation Benefit District, which could raise as much as $100/vehicle for road repairs and streetcars on 6th Avenue to TCC. There are also LID’s and levy lid lifts on the City’s side for funding options. The tax authority is there, period (unlike in King County). The City, Sound Transit, and Pierce Transit need to work together to get engineering and environmental review completed in order to take advantage of the Obama Administration’s transportation reauthorization bill (which will be passed sometime in 2011).
Parking… and alternatives
For some time, Tacoma has been pitifully discussing how much parking so many residential units or square feet of retail/office space a project needs. Consider that every dollar that we, as a society, spend on parking spaces (@ $35-$50k a space) we have that much less money to create amenities or additional floor space in new buildings. Think, solar power is approaching a cost of $1/watt, so for the price of one parking space, we could generate enough power to fuel five single family houses in Tacoma throughout the year for twenty years! Additionally, every dollar that we spend on automobile transportation gets sucked out of our local economy and is sent to Detroit, Tokyo, or Riyadh – which are nowhere near Tacoma. We have to close the economic loop for transportation in Tacoma to make it local again. Streetcars run on electricity, generated by Tacoma Power’s hydroelectric system, which can feed the local economy and reduce carbon emissions. There’s enough of a rail sector left in Tacoma that we could conceivably partner with Portland’s streetcar manufacturing facility (United Streetcar), taking advantage of the growing demand for local rail transit across the country.
B B Leach October 8, 2009
i love the street car idea, but the thing that’s missing is a REASON to go down-town! There is not alot there, and if there was, street-car or not, people would flood the downtown! We need a plan by the city to attract downtown retailers! Box-stores, mom and pop shops, bars, restaurants…ALL MAY APPLY! We need them all, and then when there’s a demand for destination downtown, people will come. Untill then we are all wasting our time with these transportation/parking plans
G Gus October 8, 2009
The college town idea is brilliant.
R Rick Jones October 8, 2009
I moved downtown as a convenience and an investment. I can walk to work, to get gorceries, to wine and dine, go to the park, see a movie, a play, music. I live near the Grand so I take the link to the other end of town.
I looked at it as an investment because of the progress that’s been made and the promise of the future. I never thought it would take less than 10 or 15 years and I’ve lived here four, worked here seven.
In those seven years I’ve seen the Convention Center built, Stadium HS restored, at least 10 new condo developments built, S Park Plaza restored, The Sheridan turned into the Murano, the Marriot built (although I mention it only as a sign of ‘growth,’ not quality), the Provident Building restored, Tollefson Plaza built (see Marriot above for referencing criterion), expansion of UWT, creation of the Farmer’s Market, the creation of this very blog, the Broadway LID, finally and plan that will save the biggest eyesore in 98402, the Elks. I’m sure I’ve forgotten several things and there is most likely a list of problems/failures just as long.
A street car system as promoted by Morgan is a must. Someone mentioned it didn’t make sense to build it because there’s nothing to come downtown for. I submit more would come, live, work downtown if it was easier to get here.
UWT is crucial. With it come youth, energy and creativity. Just on the edge of the Pearl is Portland State, Oregon’s largest university by attendence.
The city government has got to loosen up AND pay attention. The Luzon came down because its ownership was allowed to let it remain vacant for decades while not attending to its maintenace. Ditto the Murray Morgan Bridge regarding maintenance. Nearly the same happened to the Elks. The Wintrop is next on that list. The requirements for street vendors (requirements created in the 70s) are so onerous we have none.
Crime, the homeless and the emotionally challenged? These are characteristics of an urban environment, any urban environment. They are not to be ignored or ‘lived with.’ We need to continue to work for improvement. But I never expected that when I moved here I would experience the same lifestyle I did on Fox Island. And I’m nbot sure I’d want to.
It’s not so much we need to “re-think” Tacoma. We need to KEEP thinking and, as one commenter put it, keep trying new things. Just thinking and discussing leads to inertia. But if you’ve got a great idea, work on it, ala Morgan and streetcars.
Janine Turrano is an exemplary person and businesswoman who has built a world-class company from scratch in a very short time. Creative, out-of-the-box, and kind. I’d be interesed to hear what she had in mind when she tweeted her “re-think” comment.
R Rob October 8, 2009
I really appreciate your post, Rick. For those who have lived and worked in Tacoma for enough time to see the long view of changes that have already taken place, there is both a sense of how far we have come and how we can move forward during and after this economic downtown that has stalled the best-made plans of so many public and private projects.
Let’s keep thinking, talking AND doing.
R RR Anderson October 8, 2009
Someday I want to draw a cartoon endorsement of Chris K.
Sharp little dude.
G Gus October 8, 2009
Good post Rick. I have been around downtown to watch some of the transformation and “growth.” However, have any of the developments outside of UWT and the market, actually been a positive for the city? The condo developments make this city a poster child for the recession, the Murano has lost some big yearly events/conventions, and the convention center and square have done nothing but cost the city money. It seems as if we have been “doing” too many things without the right planning. We have to stop throwing money (not that there is any left now) at issues and hoping that things will naturally grow and improve.
I agree that every city comes with the crime and such that I mentioned earlier (although Tacoma’s is still nearly three times the national avg.). It just stands out in Tacoma because there is nobody else downtown.
I am happy to see this thread going and everyone voicing their opinion. Its a good start and hopefully this will all lead to some intelligent growth someday.
J Janine Terrano October 8, 2009
Well who says Twitter is not a great tool?! Sorry for being late to the party. My reason for the post is as follows:
The city needs a cultural shift regarding its view of small business. With a major employer moving, and retail no doubt suffering from the pending decrease in traffic, now is not the time to charge for street parking. Yet another example of the city’s lack of understanding on what it takes to operate a small business is the recent announcement of the B&O tax incentive claw back. We all know big business is exempt from B&O, so clearly this will primarily effect small business. In short it is a punitive assessment demanding all tax credits earned to be paid back with interest if employers terminate staff before fulfilling 5 years with a company. In this economic environment, has anyone had to reduce staff? The mere fact that it is retroactive with interest and that the city notified employees with a form letter, exposes the current culture toward small business.
Now for the truly great things about Tacoma and how we can build on them. Museums, UWT, we are a city by the bay, we are close to a major airport, it is a reasonably priced area to live. Lots of great stuff, but nothing seems to work together. Downtown could be a beautiful, people friendly, green place. If the new chairs on Tollifson Plaza are an indication of “warming” the place up, we are in need of a fresh view.
It is the age old dilemma, I am sure…money. Well, call me crazy, but I have never seen the lack of money stop a vision with the right leadership.
We really need to keep people talking and pushing to complete the vision that Tacoma can be. So, hurray for social media and people that care.
Janine
D David Koch October 8, 2009
@14: You made many valid points. Momentum has swung away from downtown because automobiles are inherently incompatible with downtowns. You can try to make downtowns compatible with cars, but you can only succeed to a limited extend through parking, roads, etc. Downtowns are for people. Right now there’s no place for people in Tacoma. You must drive everywhere. A streetcar system gives people a place and downtowns are inherently suited to cater to people and can serve as the center of the streetcar octopus. It’s not about downtown at all, but about giving the people living in Tacoma a way to actually use it and downtown can serve to give PEOPLE a way to experience ALL of Tacoma. Lucky for us that Streetcars will be good of us people AND for downtown.
@20: I want downtown to be the central street car hub not because there’s so much to do downtown but because it would be incredibly beneficial for downtown to be Tacoma’s connection to everywhere you could need to go. If you want to go to the mall, downtown can send you a street car, pull you in, then send you to the mall. Like shacks and cheap movies at the checkout line, Tacoma will be showcasing it’s stores to everyone using this strictly functional service. If the streetcars actually connect our many neighborhoods/districts, then demand for downtown storefronts will increase. I want a street car that will take me to Point Defiance, the mall, the dome, the shopping districts currently active, the old-city waterfront, etc. Street cars can connect us to those while increasing pedestrian traffic through downtown at the same time.
@23: I don’t think we need a “theme” or gimmick. We just need to make Tacoma better to keep up with our own expectations. This city belongs to us, not tourists. If we do our thing, the tourists will do theirs.
@25: I agree that UWT’s presence has a positive impact on Tacoma and increasing our support for it will come back to kiss us.
@29: Streetcars connect all of Tacoma THROUGH downtown, but you don’t need a reason to go downtown to use the streetcar to go to the zoo or the mall. But this will still actively help downtown while giving you a connection to your destination.
@30: This is already a college town, but we’re not yet maximizing the potential.
#31: Rick: “It’s not so much we need to “re-think” Tacoma. We need to KEEP thinking” EXACTLY!
Anyone who wants to do anything about it, call me. David 215-435-5578
J Janine Terrano October 8, 2009
So, to Ricks very good point, I agree it is not so much “rethink” Tacoma. (had to think about it more.) Lots of other great ideas discussed today. I just get the sense that it is currently a fragmented approach that needs a strategic ultimate outcome or we run the risk of competing efforts and decoupled results.
It is back to vision.
E Erik B. October 9, 2009
All good ideas above.
However, downtown Tacoma needs to increase the density of people if any of them are going to come to fruition.
Once more people are located downtown, more businesses of every sort will have a chance to thrive.
Very unfortunate that the council has stopped the development of a hotel on the waterfront. This had the potential to add significant life to the city rather than just have it sit nearly vacant year after year.
N NSHDscott October 9, 2009
Terrano for City Council 2012?
R Rich October 9, 2009
Ok, so I’m just thinking out loud here…soooo…..I think that downtown has many possibilites within reach, we just need to have certain people (like the council) get out of the way and let things happen. For instance, what’s wrong with a well designed hotel on the foss within the Marriott chain or hilton chain? We have a developer that has the funding, that is willing to work with the design, and who is ready to develop. This would also provide additional hotel capacity to help with attracting additional conventions, and also put people on the Foss. I really try to understand the thinking of the council on this one, but I can’t come up with any logical reasons to not allow this to proceed.
The Elks, a win for T-town, great, could be a great catalyst for growth in that area, now if we could also at the same time get the Winthrop restored, once againing adding to the hotel room capacity (and we’re just not talking Days Inn type hotel space, but actual space that conventions would love to use). At the same time I really think the Winthrop is key for that area. How can you have an area that is center for the arts, and have it look like it does? I don’t get that.
The broadway lid is turning out to be pretty nice, lets continue with some of this modernization. (christmas decor)
Next on my list would be the downtown bus station on commerce street. Does anyone else wonder why such a dead area? just buses and people waiting for buses..nothing else….why?
Urban Waters, great, but you really have to look to actually see the building among the industry. Why? Can’t we some how work at getting the first half mile or so on the east side of the foss turned into a green area with lots of trees, a park perhaps, or something more than it is now.
Which leads to another area that has already been talked about on here, getting to the foss. We really need to not only talk about this but solve the problem..
Haubs block in downtown, could lead to something really cool…we’ll see…I keep hoping for an announcment that he found someone to occupy enough space to justify building all that prime class A.
The downtown post office, great opportunity…..just don’t waste it…
The dome…modernize it….get ride of the dome look…would go great with the Lemay museum….once again, a need for good hotel rooms…..
and that leads my thinking outloud to UWT…..a previous post talked about growning that….I agree….great idea actually……doesn’t matter what the economy is doing, there is a demand for education. We need to get dorms, get students, lots of them…..which could perhaps motivate some big box retail types to open up dt…which could be a catalyst for more retail which with a great street car system could create a great reason to go downtown…….by the way, there’s a mall? where….does anyone still go there? I hate the place….would rather drive to downtown seattle and walk around to shop……
My whole point of rambling on is to make the point that we have many opportunites that are close to reality, we just need to push them over the edge and get them moving…..We really need to think about not wasting opportunites that we have (Foss Hotel)……
Oh, almost forgot, the famous plaza next to the marriot…..why not put in a coffee shop to give a reason for people to hang. Or how about tear up the whole place, plant lots of trees and grass, put some cement paths down, some benches, and make it a great downtown park using some of the other empty space along that block, it would certain tie in the U district with downtown…..just a thought
G Gus October 9, 2009
Janine thanks for posting. I have to admit I did not know about the B&O tax incentive claw back. Small business drives growth and job creation more actively than any other sector. This is disappointing to hear. Saying that we have a fragmented approach to growth here in Tacoma, is really the best way I have heard the problem articulated. It could not be more true. We are all in this together and it would do wonders for everyone to believe in one vision.
There still seems to be the never ending issue of what comes first, business or peope? This has been a debate since the very day I moved to this city. People will come if there are quality businesses and activities downtown, but the businesses and activities will not come without the people. So is it possible to encourage both populations simultaneously?
UWT has been great for this city, as well as other quality colleges. In my experience having a growing academic culture can result in a very productive entrepreneurial climate. For a solid axample look at what has happened to Boise over the last 10 years.
We have a great foundation in this city but I think the question continues to be what to level to build next.
J jamie from thriceallamerican October 9, 2009
NSHDscott@39: Terrano for City Council 2012?
Ha, she’d have to move back to Tacoma from Gig Harbor. But she does have some significant political connections on the national stage…
Y You're Welcome October 9, 2009
Maybe we need to let downtown rest and recuperate for a bit. Maybe a city of 200,000 isn’t big enough for a thriving downtown economic recovery… yet. Maybe we should concentrate some of our assets on the smaller neighborhood centers so that we all have restaurants and shopping within stumbling distance from our home. Once those neighborhoods have something that working class folks want to live near, then we might have the population to take on rebuilding our downtown.
D David Koch October 9, 2009
I will agree with the importance of concentrating on our already thriving neighborhoods. How about we build a streetcar line that connects 6th Avenue (or even Point Defiance) with Lincoln (or even the mall)? If it goes through downtown then when we invest in downtown we’re not just hoping it’ll bring more people in, there will actually be people already on streetcars going through seeing what changes we do there.
M Mofo from the Hood October 9, 2009
In order to improve downtown we need to increase the number of people circulating throughout the city.
M Mofo from the Hood October 9, 2009
Look, I don’t mean to make light of this but is there a record of transportation options to circulate Tacomans?
#? Horses. #? Mules. #? Burros. #? Dog Teams. #? Unicycles. #? Bicycles. #? Tricycles. #? Quadcycles. #? Wheelchairs. #? Rickshaws. #? Wagons. #? Wheelbarrows. #? Skateboards. #? Rollerskates. #? Buses. #? Link Rail. #? Taxis. #? Private Cars.
Well, that’s all that comes to mind at the moment.
T Tacoma1 October 9, 2009
@Mofo
You forgot: feet, jet packs, funiculars, really big slip-n-slides, rope tows, wagon trains, and catapults.
A Altered Chords October 9, 2009
we need people. The mall has people because it is covered. When it is 34 degrees and raining, even I do not like walking around outside. In addition to people we need venues that are so special, people will walk around to visit them in spite of the weather.
C CA October 9, 2009
A sizable and thriving college campus will bring plenty of people to downtown. UWT is our ticket. We need to cultivate what is there now and ensure that it grows to something bigger and better. It’s all about UWT.
D David Koch October 9, 2009
I don’t go to the mall because it’s covered, I go to the mall because there are things I need/want there. Even if downtown put in
things people need/want, it will still be a hassle to go there. The mall has a parking lot where you park and you can be free of your
car for the entire time you’re at the mall. Downtown, everything is more spread out yet downtowns are for people. That makes two
problems with downtown: 1) Access and 2) Walkability.
1) To solve the access problem, you have street cars that connect neighborhoods so regardless of if there’s anything yet to do
downtown, people will be using the streetcars to go to where there IS something to do. That way when there is something to do, it’s
almost TOO easy to step off the streetcar and do it downtown.
2) When you’re downtown, there are many different blocks where you walk long stretches of nothing. At this point, even if you want to
do something downtown you will want a car for the convenience of going from street to street. This isn’t a problem when there are
stores between the stores you want to go to.
If the mall had one decent store at one end, one decent store in the middle, and another at the end, nobody would go inside the mall,
they would get back in their cars and drive. Even if you don’t care about the stores in-between, you don’t mind walking from one end
of the mall to the other to get where you want to go because there are things to look at and do and keep you occupied on your trek.
Suddenly, you don’t mind at all.
Downtown cannot provide the car access of a mall because it is inherently for people. The only option is to increase the number of
storefronts to limit the frustration of walking a couple blocks to your next destination.
Problem: With all these storefronts, how are we going to fill them in our sleepy downtown?
Solution: You increase the pedestrian presence in the downtown which will leave businesses scrambling to fill the shops. You do this with streetcars.
Problem: How is it possible to increase the pedestrian presence downtown if there’s nothing to do and how can anything we give people
to do succeed without pedestrian presence? Why would someone take a streetcar to no-where?
Solution: We don’t make streetcars to no-where. The most important line you could make would be a streetcar that goes from the mall,
to Lincoln, to downtown, down 6th Ave, and to Point Defiance. It’s a big track but would be immensely popular among shoppers, day trippers, youth, seniors, families, workers, and partiers. The populations of a number of neighborhoods can get to the destinations that are important to them while going through downtown regardless. We would fill our streetcars and our downtown before needing businesses and activities there. From there we can actually develop downtown without worrying about if it’ll succeed in bringing people. We can concentrate on simply making smart choices for downtown.
With the popularity of Streetcars among Tacoma’s population, it is possible to push this issue with our council or even skip over them entirely. But we can’t do it unless we mobilize those who care enough to join organizations such as Tacoma Streetcar.
Street cars are not only the first step in the economic success downtown, but the first step in creating a connected, vibrant, active city. Without it, you cannot expect our other ventures to succeed.
Steps for you:
1) Contact either Tacoma Streetcar (tacomastreetcar.org) or me (215-435-5578) to make the streetcar meetings a success.
2) Plan the primary (and most likely to succeed) line from the mall to downtown to 6th and point defiance.
3) Push the plan with our council and other relevant decision makers. If that doesn’t work, we take it to a vote of the people.
4) We build the line and enjoy the streetcars.
5) We push downtown to divide downtown lots that are now in greater demand and thus build a more walkable, shoppable downtown.
6) Start shopping at the newly successful downtown stores and start planning the next line to maximize connectivity between neighborhoods.
A artifacts October 10, 2009
Why does an enterprise like the New Frontier give us such a lift and a new building like Pacific Plaza just make things seem worse. I think the answer is that Tacoma’s treasure of old buildings keeps providing affordable space for creative people and new ideas while the new unitized and assembled architecture just offers spendy sad emptiness.
In rethinking we should be reusing the downtown we have before the City tears it down. I’m chuckling that the big prestigious prize of leasing to Attorney General lawyers was won by an old brewery bottling plant. True, the AGs aren’t going there afterall but interesting that the appeal for donwtown tenants is toward the district where the densest cluster of old buildings is.
“New Frontiers in old buildings”
T Tacoma1 October 10, 2009
@David
I definitely agree with you on the advantages of the streetcars. To ensure that they are successful here, we should be willing to learn from Seattle’s struggles (and I say struggles not failures because I think that they will be able to fix the problems over time) with the SLUT. The biggest complaints that Seattleites have with the So Lake Union street car are that it doesn’t go anywhere specific, it stops a block and a half from Westlake center, only goes 1.4 miles, and gets stuck in traffic.
To ensure that we don’t have these problems, we just have to make sure that the streetcars terminate at something specific…… i.e. T-Dome, the newly designated mixed use centers, downtown T-Town of course, TCC, PLU, UPS, Point Defiance would be great it Metro Parks would shut down access to cars, and the Tacoma Mall.
As to the routes, I do agree that going up 6th Ave should be the most successful, matter of fact the entire bus route 1 seems to be constantly packed. Heading out of downtown up Pac. Ave to PLU would likely pick up lots of ridership as well. PT should have statistics that would help choose the routes with the most ridership. We should also avoid circular routes, people won’t ride in a circle on purpose – other than at Disneyland, but to get to where they want to get to, the most direct route is vital. The frequency of the trips has to be often enough that you really don’t even have to check the schedule, every 5 – 10 minutes during peak, 15 during off peak. Then people will get in the habit of using it. Every time I’ve used the new ST Central link in Seattle, I just show up, and the train arrives in a little bit, I get on – no fuss not worry – that thing is sweet!
Also, the streetcars have to have signal priority so they don’t get stuck at the traffic lights, and dedicated right of way. That will mean some parking will disappear, and this being Tacoma (and Tacoman’s do love their free parking) will not be easy to overcome, but it would be important for a successful system.
Mass transit has to be fast, efficient, and convenient, otherwise the masses won’t take the streetcar, and then we just have expensive transit.
I also believe that expanding T-Link through Fife, up to Federal Way (and connecting to ST Central Link)would be important for the success of our street cars. The more people coming or going in and out of Tacoma without their automobile the better our Downtown will be In a civilized society, we should be able to make it possible to take a complete trip in our region without a car.
As to shopping downtown, great point – I also make it a point to eat out at the restaurants downtown for a couple of reasons. a) they’re really good and b) they all have easy access to transit so I don’t have to drive home after a few too many libations.
D David Koch October 10, 2009
Eric@38: I think you were looking at downtown density in a problematic way in this comment. You want to to increase density before projects can happen yet density can’t happen until some of the projects happen. Instead of looking at this as a chicken/egg problem, let’s concentrate on a streetcar system that will connect already populated and popular destinations that funnel riders through downtown. This will give downtown pedestrian density without a need to attract people downtown. If there is something to do downtown, people will only have to get off the streetcar they’re already riding instead of getting them to ride something they’re never ridden before that goes nowhere.
As far as the hotel on the waterfront goes. I wasn’t following it closely, but it looked like an unnecessary low-quality, high-end hotel. Something of low quality at high prices taking up space on our waterfront could be a huge mistake so I certainly hope they’re being very careful about it and making sure it’s something that will be good for the city. Hopefully, it is a good thing and will be allowed to be built.
T TacomaThinker October 10, 2009
You can’t force people to divide up thier land into smaller lots, and you can’t just build stuff because you feel like it needs to be there.
Someone with money has to see the opportunity to make money and so they build. Once it’s profitable for someone, the way to get a more livable Tacoma is through good design requirements – but no themes please, that’s Gig Harbor’s thing and it stifles creativity.
Remember it all takes time, we can’t expect microwave urbanism.
An easy start to “de-fragment” our leadership maybe to create a market for student housing in the brewery district. Students=passion=activity=art=food=shops=jobs=tax revenue for bigger ideas
There is already a lot of talk about this area. Hopefully many of you recently took a survey from the city asking how this area ought to be developed.
TTT-I love the idea of a Tacoma Trolly Transit but does anyone realize the gigantic size of undertaking this would be? We can’t even cross Pacific Ave. without protest, delay’s etc. This is only going to get legs when there is a huge demand to get downtown. They are already working on connecting the Dome and Pt. Defiance with what I understand to be the longest pedestrian boulevard in the states.
T Thorax O'Tool October 10, 2009
Time for my seven-hundred sixty-four cents.
Apologies in advance for the length…
**************************************************************************
We for sure need streetcars. The city isn’t doing much, and ST is mocking us with their light rail to Seatac and “no plans to go south”. I seem to remember last year Norm Dicks, Gregoire and Patty Murray promising us some of Uncle Sam’s Obamabucks to build streetcars and get the bLink to from Seatac to extend here… what happened to those? Empty promise to get votes for ST? Probably… that’s politicians for ya.
So then, why (really, why?) aren’t WE mustering on this? We have like minded people with connections (sometimes the know-how themselves) to actually plan and price this thing. Why aren’t we pooling our resources to figure this out. Why aren’t we out getting an initiative on the ballot to build the streetcars?
My point is, “God helps those who help themselves”… “you must be the change you want to see in the world” etc, etc.
We can’t wait for our (perhaps) well-intentioned yet impotent city council to do the job. We’ll never get anything done by bureaucrats. WE need to get this ball rolling else it won’t happen.
We need people in downtown. Yet, we keep finding ourselves in the chicken-and-the-egg conundrum again. No people=no businesses, no businesses=no people.
I’m telling you, what they’re building on 25th & Yakima is the right idea. Grocery store with parking below and six floors of apartments above. THAT solves the people end, since having a Whole Foods (or whatever) downstairs is a major appeal… and it solves the business because it provides ready-made customers.
It’s how cities used to be built prior to WWII. Only in our suburban, car-driven codes and zoning of the last 60 years that urban hubs have decayed… Look at Detroit for an example of what not to do.
Development-wise, it’s smart to provide both people and businesses in one swoop; mixed use buildings really are the answer. Can you imagine a 50 story tower with a hotel at top, offices at the bottom and a few floors of condos? Or a 5-story mall with 20 floors apartments/condos above where Park Place North now sits? Remember, the charm and appeal of cities used to be found in their neighborhoods. Look at NYC… they have dense old buildings that look good and function like an organism: a permeable boundary with people going in and out, to live work and shop mostly on foot or mass transit. We need to encourage development like that, not like we see in Fife where you’re scared to death to leave your car and walk along Pac hwy. I’m telling you, we have the answer, we just need to build it.
Do we deserve to be Fife? (No offense, Fife… you’re cool but you’re a damn strip mall. You sold your soul for all those developments on Sterino’s Fields).
NO. WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. When every city is morphing into a strip mall, we need to avoid succumbing to this ghost world.
Salvation is through caring, art, people, and (again) CARING ABOUT WHERE YOU LIVE.
Look at 38th. Think of a soldier from Ft Lewis dying in the sands of Iraq. Was what’s on 38th worth dying for? If (insert country here) bombed us and got a f’real war going, who here would die for this County and their home town? Is it worth caring about? Is the Mall worth caring about? Is 56th & SoTacWay worth caring about? Is 72nd & Portland worth caring about? Is 38th & Pacific worth caring about? Is 11th & Sprague worth caring about? Is N. 46th & Pearl worth caring about? Is Center & Tyler worth caring about?
To make our home (by choice, mind you… we’re all of us free to move away) a place that is desirable to want to live in, desirable enough to attract new people, desirable enough to attract and nurture businesses, WE have to care. WE have to stop settling for mediocrity. WE have to quit electing those who “stay the course”.
WE need to make Tacoma a place worth caring about.
R RR Anderson October 10, 2009
there was a famous usability book published back in the early two thousands titled “Don’t Make Me Think” perhaps we can incorporate these ideas on a city scale.
C crenshaw sepulveda October 10, 2009
“No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.”
General George S. Patton
J Jesse October 10, 2009
First off, kudos to all you bloggers… great comments!
I’d say that the first thing that needs to be done is the streetcar thing. This town was built around a streetcar system and it shows wherever you go. Those business zones have been stretched, killed, or marginalized since they took out the original streetcar system in 1938. All rails and roads should lead downtown as one blogger noted.
If I ran the world, I’d get Tacoma out of Sound Transit too. They screw us here in the south sound time and time again. What about $179 million a mile for light rail in Seattle when Portland is doing it for $35 million? What gives? Does the whole damned system need to be in the air or in a tunnel? Talk about wasteful. Just imagine if they did it for less money and got more miles out of it. Maybe we would have seen light rail all the way to Tacoma then. I’d also do a streetcar loop in downtown to link MLK to Dock Street via 15th and 11th.
I would also make the convention Center into a mall. Build the building out over the existing parking lot over to the art store and surround the area with the big box stores that make shopping vibrant. The space is there and it would flood downtown with people. You could even build a floor under some of the streets in the area to get more space there. Hell, you might even see someone in Tollefson Plaza once in a while.
I’d theme two areas. One would be the area north of 9th in downtown — I’d call it the Century District. Everything was built around 1890-1925 in that area anyways and I’d say it’s abbout time that was respected in the character of the new buildings that will inevitablly go in there. Since Tacoma can’t beat Seattle on the business front, I’d shoot for tourism for at least the next few decades.
The second area is the Brewery Blocks. I like the plan the city already has for it. Red bricks everywhere—- a “bricktown” of sorts like in Oklahoma City.
I’d build a new convention center over by the t-dome where it probably should be anyways. Wouldn’t they work better together? Just my opinion…
I would lobby for UWT to aquire ALL the land in thier footprint and improve it. They need to be better stewards of that hillside if they insist on having control of it. Complete the stair system to Tacoma Ave., close out roads that they don’t want, and make the rest park-like. Right now I think that particular hillside is a blight on the city that has no excuse for being such. UW is LOADED with cash and assets – aren’t they leasing half of DT Seattle out for gods sake?. There’s no excuses here.
I’d put together a LID team or teams for the city. There are still neighborhoods (many of them) without sidewalks, curbs, etc. that would increase curb appeal, increase property values, and add to a clean look.
I’d eliminate the parking requirements everywhere.
I’d make the remaining wooded shipping buildings on the Foss waterway mouth into a permanent Farmers Market. I’d contract for a gondola (or some sort of transportation) to Firemans Park area to the Foss.
I’d turn Park Place North into a modern movie complex but make it match the neighborhood on the outside.
I’ll stop here. I could go on forever… my GF is giving me stink-eye for being on here too long…
T Tacoma1 October 10, 2009
@Jesse
For transit to work in Tacoma, it has to integrate with ST. It’s popular in Tacoma right now to criticize ST, and to paint them as the bad guys but that leads nowhere fast. Tacoma is not an island, and transit needs more supporters not less. There are plenty of people ready to vote against transit for their own selfish reasons. By saying that one transit org is bad, and one is good, your just gonna confuse the voting public and we will never get a viable transit system funding package passed in Tacoma. It takes a lot of political will to get these systems in place, and transit supporters need to unify for the common goal of more transit, not just their own pet transit project. Pro roads people easily unite for roads, all roads, all the time, and against transit, all transit all the time. When “transit supporters” only support one type of transit and then when that project is completed (or defeated) they move on with their lives and forget to stick up for transit projects that don’t directly affect them and our community as a whole suffers.
For Streetcars and buses to work better for us in Tacoma, they will have to integrate the schedules and service better with the regional transit. And for Tacoma to be truly connected to the surrounding communities, we need to eventually connect Tacoma Link to ST’s Central Link lightrail in Federal Way. Your plan of getting us out of ST would mean we couldn’t do that. Not to mention the hundreds of ST express buses that would disappear, and thousands of commuters that would be stranded.
M Mofo from the Hood October 10, 2009
“Tacoma should rethink it’s downtown. Preferably before everyone leaves”—-posted by Janine Terrano.
Great. Where is everyone going?
To other cities that have streetcars?
To other cities that have old brick buildings?
No thanks and No thanks.
The ideal city is Las Vegas suckahs!
A AP October 10, 2009
Downtown Tacoma needs covered, indoor common areas. I went to Infinite Soups again the other day and ended up at Wright Park like always. Why? Because where else would I go to sit and have lunch downtown?
Re: Seattle/Portland, I agree that we are our own city, and conformity breeds disease and despair, but as a small city looking to grow, naturally we should look to larger, successful cities in similar climates for ideas. Just as their concepts aren’t all good, they certainly aren’t all bad!
Getting to my point: Seattle has a host of places you can go and be protected from the weather, while visiting MORE THAN ONE BUSINESS at a time. Think covered, centrally located, efficient and NOTHING LIKE THE TACOMA MAUL. I would like to put in an order for 2 of these such places in downtown Tacoma for starters. Exact locations can be determined by all of you fine people, just as long as each retail space has 2 access points: one inside and one on the street.
Entire blocks of INTERCONNECTED retail is my solution. Not a MAUL and not a strip mall. Picture an indoor corridor connecting UW Bookstore all the way to Grazzi’s on the back side. Even if you weren’t actively shopping anything in particular, you would traverse it to stay warm and dry. Who knows? While there you just might buy something to eat or read, sit down and add something to the scenery and culture of downtown that is now scattered and sparse during winter months.
Before replying, consider that you may have summer weather mentality right now. Remember what it’s like most of the year here. I love inclement weather, but who likes walking outside when it’s raining sideways?
J Jesse October 10, 2009
@ Tacoma1: I think ST stiffles Tacoma’s ability to put together it’s own plans for transit. Imagine a levy for a cable car in Tacoma. It just won’t happen with ST in the drivers seat. That money, that levy, would never be put together without something bigger and better for Seattle — and thebrunt of the cash would go there too. I think if there were a levy for streetcars, only in Pierce County, on the ballot, it would pass. Throw in ST and thier agenda, influence, etc. and you’d have a bunch of crud attached to it that would never pass the voters. Add on top of that that ST pays WAY to much for everything, and you will never see cable cars or a complete streetcar system in Tacoma besides a token bone thrown our way. Look at how much they just paid for light rail… $179 mil a mile while Portland does it for $35 mil??? Also the berm thing… who in thier right mind designs a berm through a city?? That’s a rural design “on the cheap”. If they would have had any respect for Tacoma, it would have been designed correctly for a city in the first place —- IE- post and beam… and they actually have the gaul to be irritated that citizens are saying something… at the same moment they are spending that $179 mil a mile in Seattle. I think ST has an agenda for Seattle. Look at thier ACTIONS, not what they’re saying.
T Tacoma1 October 11, 2009
@Jesse
First off, ST is our regional transit authority. Their purpose is regional transit, not local transit. They don’t even have the legal mandate to provide local transit – that is pretty common knowledge, you should know that. Our local transit solutions are for us to figure out. If you want street cars or trolleys in Tacoma, Pierce Transit and our City Council are the ones to talk to not ST. You’ve got your peanut butter and chocolate all mixed up.
As to Portland – Portland has Trimet that runs lots of buses, street cars and light rail. They are kind of like ST, and PT all rolled up together. Plus they have already built out alot of their system so its already starting to pay back for them. The construction of the light rail infrastructure is the expensive part, not the operations. We are just in the expensive build out phase. If we would have built out back when Portland did, our cost structure would have been less as well. You just can’t realistically compare the two.
As to the berm. The current design is what our city council asked for, ST delivered to us what we (our city council) requested. What do you think will happen in 20 years when high speed rail comes thru town. If the Post and beamers get their way, the right-of-way will be all used up and we won’t ever get high speed rail because their plan includes shrinking the right of way width. If we get the P&B plan implemented, it is the least versatile for the long term. High speed rail will need a very stable platform to ride over like a berm. Putting a berm for high speed rail in 20 years right next to a post and beam tressel kind of defeats the purpose of the post and beam tressel, don’t ‘ya think? You have to look beyond the campaign rhetoric for a long term solution here.
As to the irritation that some people have said about the comments – it has more to do with the timing of the comments, not the content. This project has been in the works for years, not months. Further delay could mean that ST will forfeit over $20M in federal funds. That would be fiscally irresponsible to lose these funds for a design change this late in the process.
J Jesse October 11, 2009
Tacoma1: I have to hand it to you… you do have valid points. I am an ex-Portlander (here 4 years now) and did not know that ST had regional authority and Pierce had local authority. I do know that Tri-met in Portland is both and that is what I am used to seeing.
However, I am stating recent cost quotes of $35 mil a mile for light rail in Portland versus $179 in Seattle. That, by anyones standard, is a waste.
T Tacoma1 October 11, 2009
Jesse
Maybe you have can source your cost figures. I don’t know that much about Trimet, I do know that to put in lightrail ST had to tunnel under Beacon Hill in Seattle, it couldn’t have been cheap. That being said, I’ve been on the new link light rail, and smile every time. I personally couldn’t classify it as a waste of money, just a sweet ride. I am sure that if you asked ST, and Trimet, they could tell you whats up with the money.
P Papasan October 11, 2009
I read the first two entries to this and almost screamed. I stopped reading.
I am SICK TO DEATH of hearing people ramble on about streetcars!!!
We HAVE a transit system that is already under-utilized. They are called BUSES!
Streetcars were out-dated by the buses way back God-only-knows-or-cares when in this Town. Just because it’s graced with long, tall hills, some of you folks have some sort of a San-Francisco relapse and envision street cars.
Who’s gonna lay the tracks, Sound Transit??? HA HA
Who’s gonna buy the cars, Sound Transit?? HA HA.
The day Pierce County ie. Tacoma sees one of our own tax dollars spent here on ANY project, Mount Tacoma will turn into a giant Mocha Latte and we’ll be in coffee utopia for all eternity. It cost over $80 Million to lay just over 1 Mile of track downtown. That’s ONE MILE for $80 MILLION!!! Any ideas on what it will cost to lay track and cable to link downtown to the rest of the City?? Tens of Billions??? HUNDREDS of Billions??? WHERE is this money coming from?? Lets raise the B&O Tax. I’ll bet that got the attention of the business owners.
Consider this also. Look at all the harsh words that are flying back and forth at the City Council over ONE bridge downtown for Medium rail service. Imagine the fuss in Proctor if the rail isn’t laid on the right street. Or South Tacoma complaining that the system didn’t START there instead of the North End.
We’re talking DECADES just to iron out the bickering.
Streetcars WON’T work in Tacoma. They HAVEN’T worked in Tacoma.
They’ll NEVER work in Tacoma.
Now, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD get over it!!!
T TacomaThinker October 11, 2009
Streetcars or not, how about other ideas for rethinking downtown?
M Mofo from the Hood October 11, 2009
How would you all feel about the Park Plaza North Garage getting redesigned and repurposed as a learning center for a monorail system?
A AP October 11, 2009
@67 Although I’ve been trying to get my cortex wrapped around this for days, and I have warmed to the streetcar idea slightly, I must agree with you that this all seems like quite the pipe dream. Sure, it would be neat, but that doesn’t mean squat right now.
We need less talk about how “neat” it would be to have things in this city. We are and have been down to brass tax around here for years. Those of you living in a dream, please come back to reality and join the real conversation already in preogress.
At this point, it matters ZERO what I want, you want, he wants, she wants… What will spark growth? And what will positively work in less than 5 years? If it can’t be done in less than 5 years, then I don’t want to hear about it right now. Talk to me when the downtown has 2 legs to stand on.
These are urgent times for downtown. Only things that can evolve quickly should occupy our thoughts and conversations. Our 20 year plan is irrelevant if our 5 year plan isn’t something special. Look around. Downtown is completely dysfunctional. If you don’t work or go to school down there, it is the Forgotten Realm. That needs to change, first, foremost and FAST.
D David Koch October 12, 2009
@67: You seem to think that since buses came after streetcars they are superior. If you continued reading through the post, you would have learned how although Tacoma has boomed in the last 70 years, ridership on our buses now is still less than the on the streetcar systems of the 30’s. Streetcar ridership is more efficient financially and ridership-wise. The cost you quoted is very far off.
If Chris would be so kind, perhaps he could share with us the projected costs of additional Tacoma streetcar lines. Also keep in mind how much cheaper they are than buses after the tracks have been laid and how quickly their savings catch up to their initial costs and leave us with less cost in the end.
Also, if you read more than the first couple of posts, you would see that without the pedestrian hub a streetcar system would bring to downtown, the city will continue their chicken/egg game in the hopes of things balancing off and growing.
Streetcars are an extremely efficient way to establish pedestrian flow through downtown so future projects/businesses will be more successful. I’m afraid streetcars systems will work for Tacoma because they’re a perfect fit for our needs.
I am sorry you are so hysterical about streetcars. Hopefully when you’re suffering the benefits of a proper streetcar system, you’ll find yourself in a more relaxed state.
@78: It’s OK to have concerns. I appreciate your level head.
There are current plans being laid to get an extension of the Link down 6th and possibly to Tacoma Community College. We would then have 2 more colleges connected directly to downtown and 6th Ave, along with a far more efficient (financially and ridership-wise) replacement of the 1 bus currently struggling to keep up with riders.
I’m under the impression that a more financially viable and more popular form of transportation connecting our neighborhoods with our downtown that can transport more people than buses is a good thing. I’m eager to go to the next Tacoma Streetcar meeting to find out more.
M Mofo from the Hood October 12, 2009
How about a fleet of 1950’s British double-decker buses?
I’m trying to grasp the streetcar concept. I’ve ridden the cable cars in San Francisco and the one in the local Spaghetti Factory.
So partly I think all this talk is based on the novelty of the mode of transport—-speculation that people would be attracted to an unusual transport system.
My choice for novelty ride would be a raised monorail system. Even a street level system would be acceptable to me. It is a mode of transport that is highly developed in terms of computer and electromagnetics technology. Additionally the concrete railway supports can be produced by Tacoma company Concrete Technology Corp.
If Tacoma is systematically developing a 21st century cityscape–partiality toward technological innovations–then a monorail system would fit such a design scheme.
D David Koch October 12, 2009
It’s very interesting how many people see installing a cheaper, more efficient, more affective, and more popular alternative to buses as a novelty or a pipe-dream. I’m not sure what I’m missing. Streetcars would only replace buses on routes where it would save us money, make for a better city at the same time. People seem to think streetcars are more beautiful and safer than buses. My personal concerns are the fiscal benefits and the connections between city districts.
Yes, it costs money upfront, but Sound transit has money waiting for us, the federal government will match much of the funds, and Pierce Transit is already spending an extraordinary amount on putting buses through those same routes less efficiently.
The main hurdles are the people who are dismissing streetcars offhand. I understand that many have the idea that streetcars are archaic, expensive, inefficient, and a step backwards, but I hope we can fix these misconceptions. Buses are simply unable to match the efficiency and ridership of streetcars (except for our Link which currently IS a novelty since it doesn’t go anywhere).
I hope we can start taking our financial and social responsibilities seriously enough to keep an open mind and use what works for our city. If you want to rethink Downtown Tacoma, then streetcars will free us to address downtown issues without worrying about the fundamental issues that streetcars will solve.
T tacoma1 October 12, 2009
1) I’d like to see the North Parking Plaza building get a 7 day a week farmers market.
2) I’d like to see the bus hub moved down to T-Dome/Freighthouse square so we can breathe some life into an entire city block, and disperse the loitering.
3) I’d also like to see a cinema downtown that shows first run movies Downtown. I love going to the Grand – it’s a city treasure, on the bus routes, and easy to get to. Unfortunately, to see a major movie release, I have to get in a car and go to the suburbs. Because of that, I mostly don’t go to movies anymore, it’s just to inconvenient.
Downtown Tacoma needs humans, its really just that simple. With more ears and eyes about, the bad guys will leave, business’s will thrive, other business people will come, their new business’s will provide a bigger tax base to help pay for the transportation infrastructure that people want.
And people want trains, street cars, and light rail. They don’t want buses, they don’t like buses, they get on buses as a last resort. Buses are relatively cheap to start up, emit CO2 just like cars, and extremely expensive to keep on the road. Street cars and light rail are the exact opposite. Expensive to put in, cheap to keep running, and with no CO2 emissions.
Of course Papasan is right about one thing,
“Look at all the harsh words that are flying back and forth at the City Council over ONE bridge downtown for Medium rail service. Imagine the fuss in Proctor if the rail isn’t laid on the right street. Or South Tacoma complaining that the system didn’t START there instead of the North End.”
With all of the anti transit, anti sound transit, and anti city council rhetoric coming from the pro post and beam group, they have done tremendous damage to the political will for anyone to want to stand up for a major transit package in the future. I fear that Papasan may be right about our transit future.
I Ian October 12, 2009
So imagine Nordstrom had decided to move downtown instead of going bigger at the mall.
Imagine all the high heels and fat wallets at lunchtime and in the evenings.
Imagine.
D David Koch October 12, 2009
@73: Thanks for the post. 1) I think a 7 day farmers market would be a very good idea. I stopped going to the market downtown as I got busier because I don’t want to keep track of what day it is and try to be free that day. 7 days a week would mean I could go every week. I have concerns about it being in a parking garage as they have low ceilings and are rather unpleasant. I haven’t been in this particular garage though so maybe it’s better than most.
@73: 2) Moving the bus terminal would help that street out considerably, but I don’t know enough about the affect it would have on commutes and convenience for the riders. It seems riders could still catch a bus at any stop downtown to take them to the Dome bus terminal. It certainly sounds good.
@73: 3) I also hate having to drive 20 minutes to a movie theater. I always drive by the Grand first to see if there’s anything I’m in the mood for first, but often times I end up driving out to UP or Lakewood or Federal Way ($2 theater!!!). Tacoma Avenue seems perfectly suited to hosting a full scales theater! Or maybe tear down one of our giant parking garages to build a theater (perhaps even inside a indoor shopping area..). Or just use one of the many empty lots…
E Erik S October 12, 2009
@73 – I think that one of the biggest obstacles to expanding transit options in Tacoma is actually Sound Transit. I don’t say that because I hail rail transportation – I’d love to see a system built in Tacoma. No, the reason I say that ST is a problem is that they see Pierce Co primarily as a revenue source rather than a home to valued customers. Look at the recent ST2 package. What did Pierce Co really get out of that? Some money for light rail planning? Wow. Vague promises of possible (slow) rail service to S King Co (and eventually Seattle) in 15 years? I’d rather see Pierce Co keep their transit dollars and use them closer to home.
M Mofo from the Hood October 12, 2009
I ride the local buses. They’re very versatile. Firstly, they’re not restricted to a track system. Secondly, recent bus models have been designed to accomodate personal wheeled vehicles. Bicycles can be carried on racks fixed outside below the bus windshield. Another major innovation is the ability to lower the doorway height and also unfold a cantilevered ramp. This ramp system with assistance by the bus driver has provided a means of independent travel for wheelchair bound people and those who are carrying small children in strollers.
I’ve ridden the bus many times when all these types of passengers have boarded during the route. And speaking of routes, Pierce Transit prints a free schedule book which displays a system map and ridership information. Lastly, the transit center concept, especially the 10th & Commerce Zone, is very helpful. With transit centers one can transfer to other routes from a coordinated location.
Now, I have in hand 10 color photographs which I shot while visiting Hong Kong in 1988. The photos were shot from the upper level of a double-decker streetcar, a quite narrow streetcar. On one side of the aisle is a single row of seats. On the other side is a row of two individual seats. Each streetcar can carry about 60 passengers. Because these streetcars are so narrow, they allow the benefit of two sets of side-by-side rails laid down the center of the street. The cars are electrified from overhead wires.
The Hong Kong double-decker streetcar system shares the street with gas powered double-decker buses and a fleet of single deck buses. So, the scale of the streetcars themselves, as well as the scale and coordination of its routes are important factors.
Tacoma may or may not ever reach the population level of Hong Kong, so today, right now, there is very obvious need to justify WHY Tacoma should have streetcars.
I’ve summarized in my first two paragraphs why Tacoma, since 1938, transitioned from streetcars into a bus system. Why now should Tacoman’s consider buying an additional public service transportation system? Why should this generation buy a streetcar system that we as well as future generations will pay for with limited and often scarce dollars? What is the problem that streetcar advocates are trying to solve?
T tacoma1 October 12, 2009
@Mofo
I ride the buses too, but most people don’t and won’t. Most people, for whatever reason, will gladly hop on a streetcar or train, it doesn’t have to make sense – it just is what it is.
Buses are expensive to operate, and they get stuck in traffic just like cars. Streetcars can have a dedicated right of way, and lightrail and trains always do so unexpected delays are essentially eliminated.
And buses emit CO2 just like cars and trucks, light rail and streetcars run off of electricity. Granted the heavy rail still runs on diesel – but that can be fixed in time.
It is cost effective to run light rail and streetcars frequently – every 10 minutes or so, so the transit user no longer has to check time schedules – just show up and the next train will be by soon enough. If we did that with buses, we would break the bank and jam the roads.
@Erik S
I don’t know how many times I have to say this but ST is our Regional Transit Authority. The key word there is “Regional”. ST service includes 100’s of express buses, Sounder Heavy Rail service, and and some extension of the T link light rail.
It make absolutely no sense to blame Sound Transit for not providing local street car service which they have no mandate or taxing authority to provide anyway. If we want street cars in Tacoma it is up to Tacoma taxpayers to fund streetcars in Tacoma. Tacoma is not an island, we can’t fund local transit and defund regional transit. We would have very few people on transit if that was what we did.
If we truly want streetcars here, we need to foster a culture of rail transportation. We need to make it possible to take rail from out of town, and transfer to our local streetcars, or vice versa. Not just rail service where I want it or you want it, but rail here, there, and everywhere. That way, it becomes feasible to take rail without thinking too much about it, and without checking schedules. If one could take heavy rail from Seattle, Portland, or tourists from Seatac Airport could take lightrail, and then take our streetcars anywhere in Tacoma – North Tacoma, Downtown, the Mall, or to Point Defiance, then we can leave the cars at home without worry.
D David Koch October 12, 2009
@79 Mofo: There are a couple bus lines in Tacoma that can’t keep up with demand and building permanent streetcar routes on those routes would not only save us money, but more efficiently transport those people on crowded buses. Obviously buses can do things that streetcars couldn’t possibly do, which is why you use buses when it works and use streetcars when it’ll be more efficient and save us more money. We don’t need to be a huge metropolis for streetcars to work. It only needs to make sense for our needs.
Let’s start with the bus route going down 6th and to TCC. A streetcar going there from the Dome (by extending the current Link) would save money and take care of the ridership demand that the bus line is struggling with.
E Erik S October 12, 2009
@80 Yes, the mission of ST is to provide regional service, however the fact remains that most of the ST2 expenditures will be made within Seattle city limits or at least within King Co. So they are taking Pierce Co revenues and using them for projects that won’t benefit Tacomans directly for a very long time. If we didn’t send funds their way (or sent them only for specific King-Pierce bus routes) then that money could be used to build projects in Tacoma.
@79, 81 – I’m no big fan of light rail as a transit option, at least as far as cost effectiveness. But it is pretty clear rail has an appeal (somewhat irrational to my mind but still very real) to many that would not choose to ride buses. And that appeal, combined with the fixed nature of the rails, can re can serve as a magnet for development/settlement along the rail lines. That is definitely something that Tacoma in general and the nearly empty downtown in particular would really benefit from.
Y You're Welcome October 12, 2009
Does anybody remember the 7-day-a-week farmers market at Freighthouse? Probably not, since it failed miserably. Has anyone even shopped at Freighthouse lately? There’s your downtown covered shopping with plenty of parking that nobody shops at!
We have some of the best weekly farmers markets. Too bad they’re seasonal but they are worthy of our support. If you’re not shopping at least once a week at the weekly markets you can’t really expect a full time market to thrive.
And also, this maybe a silly question… isn’t the link a modern sort-of streetcar? Why can’t we invest more into the link vs. setting up a whole other streetcar system?
A AP October 12, 2009
Maybe rethinking Tacoma means moving away from grandiose, long-term concepts and moving toward smaller, burst style revitalization?
Jast as rail lines provide a permanent blood supply to adjacent businesses, I-5 does the same. I’m becoming a fan of dolling up the Dome District, based on its perceived proximity to the interstate.
Ever notice that there is not a single retail business or restaurant visible to the 9,342,839,845,935,793 cars passing by Tacoma’s Exit 133 on I-5 daily?
T tacoma1 October 12, 2009
Just for clarity here:
Street cars ride on rail built into the street. They use the same street that cars use, and frequent stops. They may or may not have signal priorty. They will only go the same speed as the surrounding traffic.
Light rail always has dedicated right of way, and signal priority. Light rail will typically have fewer stops and faster speed.
What we currently have in Downtown Tacoma is a hybrid system which has signal priority, some of the route is dedicated right of way for rail only, but some of the route shares the street with traffic.
I like what we have for in town, but we need more of it. Between Downtown and up towards Seatac Airport – lightrail with only a few stops, maybe in Fife, Milton, Federal Way S, and Federal Way N would be nice.
S Squid October 12, 2009
Janine is correct. Most of the posters here are talking about tactics, we need somebody who can articulate a vision and a strategic plan.
Remember, urban planning is not like religion. You can’t pray for forgiveness for your sins. You have to live with them and PAY to correct them. And Tacoma has SINNED.
Nobody wants to go downtown because there is essentially no shopping. No major shopping entities will come downtown because nobody goes there. Chicken, meet the egg. It’ll take a vision and a plan to figure out which comes first. Simple, but not easy.
P Papasan October 12, 2009
Very well put, squid.
Large department stores can exist in a downtown environment and they draw people in. I like the McMenamin’s idea for the Elks building that’s being proposed.
Other large scale shopping venues hopefully will follow. They need to incorporate a parking structure as part of the design.
Why not take the soo-to-be-empty Russell building and convert it to a large retail complex with maybe an upscale restaurant on the top floor?
Create reasons for people to go downtown and more businesses will start coming back. THEN, while they are being built upgrade the transportation system. The expense of a streetcar system, or ANY system isn’t justified until there is a reason to go there.
D Douglas Tooley October 12, 2009
Two Words – Jim Merritt.
A AP October 12, 2009
Businesses need to be recruited here in clusters. Groups of shops give people much more reason to go than one shop alone. Where do we start? Pacific? Dome District? Somewhere near I-5 and the transit hubs that exist, right?
M Mofo from the Hood October 12, 2009
Yes, thanks Squid @86 for confirming the validity of my statement at #60.
I said that Las Vegas aka Sin City is the ideal city; that’s where everyone goes. So if, as Squid says, Tacoma is full of sinners, then rethinking downtown Tacoma to prevent everyone from leaving is simply a matter of reverse engineering.
We need to examine Las Vegas, reduce it to its basic enticing elements, and then rethink and reproduce downtown Tacoma in a way that resembles Las Vegas. Converting Tacoma into Sin City NW will allow us to capitalize on the sinfullness of Tacomans. All Tacomans.
The “Las Vegas Plan” is important because in the big picture downtown Tacoma will have a means to produce surplus money to build the fantasy railroad envisioned by the Tacoma Streetcars crowd.
This is a sensible plan that will allow us to bypass any regional authority who has more money and therefore more power than us.
• RETHINK DOWNTOWN TACOMA AS LAS VEGAS •
E Erik S October 12, 2009
@89 the cluster idea makes some sense. I do think that all or most of the effort needs to be directed to one of the areas that has the most potential (Stadium/Theater or UWT/brewery) rather than spreading it out. A little development sprinkled over the whole area (unless it’s something as incredibly basic as and adequate level of police presence) won’t make enough of a difference anywhere to create a critical mass of activity.
J Jesse October 12, 2009
I’d like to see a deal brokered between Westfield (the mall’s parent compant) and Tacoma that goes something like this:
Tacoma buys land by HWY 512 and I-5 big enough for a bigger suburban mall — one that pulls in Puyallup’s people and Olympians.
Trade said land and the convention center for the Tacoma mall in agreement that Westfield make the convention center into a mall.
Then, another mall, much farther away from DT at 512 and I-5 be build for suburbia on the land supplied by Tacoma in this deal.
The current mall would then be owned by Tacoma to be sold off in parcels for suburban apartment buildings.
Rezone the area so no more big stores can be built in the area.
Basically I’m saying that the current mall is too close to downtown for both DT and the mall to be BOTH viable shopping entities. Until this is addressed, I don’t think we’ll ever see great shopping downtown unless maybe the DT population tripled.
T tacoma1 October 12, 2009
How ‘bout selling Cheney Stadium for a bazzillion bucks to a developer that has to put in an office park or something that provides a solid tax base for the city (no strip malls allowed). Then put in a new cool state of the are baseball stadium in heart of the Brewery District? The ciy already owns alot of the land there. Portland has a baseball stadium right downtown, and its real popular.
E Erik S October 12, 2009
I like it Jesse. I don’t know what it would cost to pull something like that off, but if we set that aside for the time being I’d have to say that I like your plan. The convention center won’t bring as many people downtown on a regular basis as a solid block of retail outfits.
J Jesse October 12, 2009
@ Tacoma1: Google Oklahoma City’s Bricktown. That concept, minus the boats, would be ideal in the Brewery Blocks IMO.
@ Erik S: Ya, probably an expensive pipe dream. It’d cost a fortune but I’m sure someone could make it look good on paper when you consider long term tax revenue, etc. I’d think the mall plans fall in the “to good to be true” category.
Also, imaging soccer and baseball in the Stadium Bowl with streetcar access up 1st street. Neetooooo!!!
A Altered Chords October 12, 2009
Real life example of people going downtown.
Saturday –
3:00 Girlfriend wants to see the Glass museum. We go.
5:00 We want martinis and food.
5:15 We learn 701 opens at 5:30 and walk around downtown and see that the Firwood has applied for a liquor license and Klub Kokonut looks ready to open.
5:30 – we check in to the 701 for martinis and 1/2 price food (saturday special)
Now it seems that there will soon be 2 new places to visit downtown.
Note: we did not visit the persian rug store or learning sprout.
Another note: I stopped into once but did not purchase anything from the Moroccan store. My point is that the retail establishment needs to offer something enough people want in order to thrive.
I do not know what a business owner downtown wants to see that makes them want to keep their business downtown. I’d be interested to know what Janine would like to see downtown.
T TacomaThinker October 13, 2009
I love the idea of the Rainiers re-locating downtown, but is there a location big enough? The area between UWT and the new stadium could have a dedicated pedestrian boulevard flanked with restored buildings and infilled mixed use buildings. If the stadium could be a public/private partnership it just might be feasible and it could be the catalyst for retail. It could help to reach critical mass anyways.
It seems like tax incentives are a big attraction for getting business to relocate downtown. Isn’t that one of the issues that caused the twitter post in the first place?
M Morgan October 13, 2009
Wow! Almost 100 comments!
Re: streetcars –
I would love to see neighborhoods fighting over getting a streetcar line. Tacoma needs that kind of fight!
Re: vision/solution –
Streetcars can’t exist without people to ride them. Tacoma needs more people not just downtown, but everywhere. Unfortunately, the city over the years has created policy that often makes development not “pencil.” Other communities have created non-profit development agencies to create new housing and thus “prime the pump” for market rate developers. This type of development desperately needs to happen in Tacoma. Of course, it takes leadership at the mayoral and council level to help make this happen.
What I could change Tacoma:
If I could change two things in Tacoma, it would be to make our city council full-time WITH support staff and to switch to a strong mayor form.
A Altered Chords October 13, 2009
Morgan: Great point. How do we go about making that sort of change? Does the city have a constitution or a set of bylaws? Do we need a reforendum? How did we end up with this sort of system?
100th post – do I get a free T-shirt now?
D Derek staff October 13, 2009
100th post – do I get a free T-shirt now?
Sure. Contact me.
J joey October 13, 2009
Re: the sale of the Chihuly/Jet building to the state for law offices(I think)? It seems to confirm that the UWT end of town is the place to be, whether you are a student or a lawyer. It is moving another piece out of downtown. And it is removing a potential future building from UWT’s footprint.
Thoughts?
J joey October 13, 2009
Re: Sale of Chihuly/Jet building. More proof that the brewery district is the place to be whether you are a student or a lawyer. Another functioning piece removed from downtown. Removing a future piece of the UWT footprint. What are the ramifications? Thoughts?
D David Boe October 13, 2009
Density, Density, Density. If Downtown-T does not get increased residential density – all the good ideas above will not come to fruition (and who the #$@! cares about an International Financial Services Area – really). My vision for Downtown-T is for it to become a funky Ballard sized Barcelona. Full block 4-5 story buildings with a variety of mixed-uses at the street level (and anything goes here – no restrictions) and then connect the core with railed transit (take your pick) direct to the Tacoma’s Big 3: the Dome, the Mall and the Casino (remember where we are after all – don’t fight it, embrace it). Create urban spaces in the core that work on their own – i.e. without having to be programmed (and if you can’t fess-up to your failures – then you can never get past them boys and girls). The City needs to think beyond da box and provide real economic incentives for making this type of development pencil so Downtown-T actually can compete with Bonney Lake and Graham as a viable place to live economically. “Yeah, it is great to frequently visit Seattle/Portland/Vancouver, but where you want to live is in Tacoma.”
6 6ther October 13, 2009
@105: I agree whole-heartedly with idea of taking one city block and allowing for an “anything goes” mentality. It reminds me of 6th Street in Austin Texas (another fabulous college town) where every evening 6th is blocked off at both ends of a one or two block section and people are allowed party in the street. There are night clubs on both sides of 6th, live music, themed bars, dance clubs and more. The police are ever-present and will impose their force at the drop of a hat for any inappropriate behavior by anyone (military dickheads), but they also are tolerant of people who are there just to celebrate and have a good time.
I’ve been to Austin Texas once in my life, I was 21 and I had an incredible time. I think I did other stuff when I visited Austin, but I can’t remember for the life of me what it was. All I remember is the vibe on 6th Street. We went there every night for the 5 days we were there. I still talk about 6th street to this day.
S Squid October 13, 2009
Boe@105: Tacoma a funky Ballard-sized Barcelona?
BOE FOR MAYOR!
J jamie from thriceallamerican October 13, 2009
NSHDscott@106: “I’ve said this before: I think we should extend our Link just a bit further to end in the parking lot on Commerce by McM’s Elks and Old City Hall, and a streetcar line should start up the Spanish Steps on Broadway, where it can more easily get to the Stadium District and beyond.”
My preference would be to keep the existing Link and future streetcar the same system instead of requiring a transfer (especially one that involves going up a flight of stairs…even if they’re cool stairs people are going to grumble). However, you’re right that the Stadium Way corner would be somewhat of a problem. Similarly, the corner on Broadway would be a problem. So I think we need to go up St. Helens, which offers the added bonus of having a bit more residential and business density already and really is the logical transit corridor. Unfortunately, the designers of Link made the blunder of going down Commerce (but oddly not stopping at the Transit center), so we need to atone for their sins and somehow get the Link up a block to Broadway somewhere before it gets to 9th to allow travel up St. Helens. There are various places this could happen, including way back at 26th or through what is currently the transit-turnaround-slash-Theater-Square-park, but my current thinking is that it would be wise to keep the current alignment past UWT (don’t ruin a good thing) and the Convention Center, and then immediately after the Convention Center station transition a block up the hill through the vacant lot, meeting Broadway just in front of the Murano, where it can continue on Broadway straight past the Theaters and on up St. Helens.
Once we can go up St. Helens, all of the challenge of getting up the hill to the Stadium District and turning down Sixth becomes a piece of cake. We can go on stages…first up the hill to 1st and Tacoma Ave, second down 1st/Division to Sprague, third along Sixth to Union or Proctor, etc. on to TCC. Send a spur north on Proctor and out to Point Defiance, another one South on Tacoma Ave or Yakima to the South End, etc.
Might have to bust out the Google Maps and a “virtual marker” to sketch something up here…
M Morgan October 14, 2009
Shouldn’t a downtown vision be a public process? Wasn’t the city updating its downtown plan before it got distracted with the mixed-use update? Maybe it’s time to pick it back up.
N NSHDscott October 14, 2009
tacoma1, I don’t see how Sound Transit building streetcars that connect Seattle’s Capitol Hill, First Hill and International District areas to the regional system is any different than Sound Transit building streetcars that connect Tacoma’s neighborhoods to the regional system, which is Tacoma Link. I know that Tacoma Link doesn’t function regionally yet, but it’s clearly part of Sound Transit’s regional system, once built out. Unlike Seattle’s SLUT streetcars, or other systems they may consider such as a waterfront trolley, I think it is a given that future Tacoma streetcars will connect to Tacoma Link, just like ST’s First Hill streetcar connects to Central Link. So, what point were you trying to make?
I do expect the debate on how to spend our $160 million in light rail funds (once the $80 mil is matched) will come down to either:
1) extending the south end of Tacoma Link into Fife, with the idea that it will eventually connect to Central Link in Federal Way
2) extending the north end through the Stadium District to Tacoma General
3) building one or more short streetcar lines that connect Stadium, Hilltop, and McKinley neighborhoods (for example) to northern, central, and southern stations of the Tacoma Link
I figure commuters to Seattle, like tacoma1, are going to want #1. North End residents will like #2, while #3 seems most appealing to Tacoma residents all over because it spreads out the investment.
T Tacoma1 October 14, 2009
@NSHDscott
I see no difference either in an extension of T-Link and Seattle’s Capitol hill street car, other than Seattle has 3 times the residents and 5 times our money, tons more congestion, and they funded that line.
We are probably talking about different things. I think we should have our own Tacoma streetcar network that connects our neighborhoods to downtown Tacoma, the Mall, and Point Defiance. Specific routes to be selected by PT and tons of Tacoma citizen input. And also have ST extend the T-Link to Fed Way as a true Light Rail Line. So in my perfect world, we need both ST and PT. If you haven’t had a chance to take that new lightrail from Tukwila to DT Seattle, you really need to do it.
J jamie from thriceallamerican October 14, 2009
Doesn’t ST2 include funds for purchasing right of way for the eventual connection of Central Link at least as far south as Fife from the Airport? That’s separate from the $160m for light rail funds, right? I would prefer that those rail funds go towards the local neighborhood connections using streetcar and we hold ST towards the long term vision of getting the Link to Tacoma…AKA it should be fully funded in ST3. (However, as a Seattle commuter, I’m content to stick to the Sounder, which will remain faster than Link, which is more about getting me to the airport.)
T Tacoma1 October 14, 2009
ST2 did include funds for right of way acquisition and preliminary engineering to bring light rail from Fed Way to T-Town. It also included $80M for an extension of T-Link if matching funds are located. So we get to decide, debate, and argue as to the best use of those funds.
As ST3 would have to come via another vote, that isn’t likely for awhile and certainly isn’t a given t hat it would pass. There is even talk in Seattle that Seattle may go for their own rail vote just within Seattle. If that happens, I would guess that we would have to wait forever to see an ST3 vote.
I wouldn’t expect that many people would take light rail from Tacoma to Seattle. I do think that lightrail from FW to Tacoma would do a couple of things though:
1) It would eliminate the need for the ST 574, and PT 500, so a net operating savings as lightrail would be cheaper to operate over the long haul.
2) Spur TOD development along 99
3) Make it just as easy for tourist’s coming into Seatac airport to hop on light rail southbound, as northbound. Our hotels are less expensive than the evil city, we have Chihuly stuff – they don’t, we have the LeMay Museum (maybe, maybe not). We should be able to easily capture some extra tourist bucks for DT T-Town with it.
4) It would just increase access to DT Tacoma, so an employer that located here, could be assured that the employees can live virtually anywhere, and still get to DT T-Town economically and on time.
5) When we get tired of the rain, we can get to the airport quickly and easily.
6) When in Federal Way, Tacoma residents can view examples of really bad public planning and lots of strip malls for miles and miles while in the comfort of non polluting transport.
T TacomaThinker October 15, 2009
@112
I’d vote for #2. With the hopes that it would soon after continue up 6th Ave. I’d rather connect Tacoma to it’s downtown than some other city.
T Tacoma1 October 15, 2009
If it is an either or, I would vote to connect Tacoma neighborhoods to DT Tacoma too.
I think it would be nice to do both. Just maybe, if we think big enough, and ask the right people the right questions, we could get Fife, Fed Way, and the Puyallups to pay for most of the the trip north.
N Nicholas Arndt October 15, 2009
#93 @tacoma1
You’ve hit at something with the downtown baseball thing. When I came across a Portland Beavers game on FSN this summer I was pretty surprised by all the 20 somethings looking like they were having a blast. I was a bit too young to young to notice, but does anyone remember if the Rockets had any type of young adult social following? I realize that baseball and the design of PGE Park is a completely different atmosphere than hockey and the Dome, for sure, but it’s too bad Cheney isn’t situated further east.
A consistent, social “thing to do” other than bars/music/eating would be nice for urban Tacomans.
A Andrew Fry October 15, 2009
Tag Cloud of an Exit133 Conversation
Reading through the large quantity of commentary from a wide variety of posters peaked my interest in how this conversation might look as a Tag Cloud. I used a site called MakeCloud to put one together (through comment 115) and though not too enlightening, it does have some interesting results.
N Nicholas Arndt October 15, 2009
@ThriceJamie
Whoah…absolutely awesome stuff. Thank you. You’ll have to forgive me for not knowing about all the great stuff regarding downtown baseball on your blog and the drawings here on Exit133. I’ve only really been active in the online Tacoma conversation since last Fall, so I missed your great posts first time around. I’ll take some time and read through these, but from first glance the ideas are terrific. A belated thank you for the ideas!
T tacoma1 October 15, 2009
@Nicholas Arndt
I think it’s a great idea too. It is actually just a modified version of David Boe’s idea of putting the stadium down on the Foss Waterway. So the credit for the original idea has to go to him. I actually think that’s almost a genius type of idea – but me not the actual originator of said genius-ness.
Does anyone know if there was any serious talk about moving Cheney last year? I know that Ladenburg, when he was in office brought up the possibility of repurposing that whole area. Since P. McCarthy has been in office, haven’t heard a thing. The drive and the parking fiasco at Cheney convinces me not to go most of the time. If it were more convenient, I would gladly attend games more often.
@AJ
If your looking for a walkable bikeable neighborhood, and great restaurants, you ain’t gonna find it in F-Way. Those F-Way soccer moms will run you down in a New York minute with their mini vans and SUV’s if you try to ride or walk around there.
I’d definitely choose T-Town, and suggest the UPS area – smack dab in between Proctor and 6th Ave. Ton’s of fantastic restaurants within a flat walkable mile, and close enough to Pt Defiance (the greatest park on earth) for a nice bike ride. I’m not one to recommend restaurants, other than you have to try ‘em all to find the ones you like the most.
Y You're Welcome October 15, 2009
I don’t get the whole Cheney thing? What “parking fiasco”? That you have to pay to park in the lot? So downtown is going to make parking easier? Blah blah blah, parking is free for season ticket holders and ain’t nothing going to change if you don’t start going to the games. It takes a big fan base to make a city want to invest in a new stadium and since none of you peeps are going to the games…
Thursday nights are $2 beer and dogs, I encourage anyone in their young 20’s to 30’s to buy a cheap seat and sit in the beer garden. It’s a big singles scene. As a bonus, you have a whole group of people who are smart enough to figure out a giant flat parking lot. So if you hope to find someone to procreate with, you already have a leg up on evolution, finding a group of people smart enough to park a car and all. Just think how smart your babies will be.
I think Cheney is in a great location, especially if we can get a trolly or link sation at the gates.
T tacoma1 October 15, 2009
@Your Welcome
I never complained about the price of parking. My personal preference is to let someone else chauffeur me to these types of things.
If the ball park was downtown, I wouldn’t have a parking fiasco because I wouldn’t have to park nuthun. I could leave the car at home now, and take public transportation now, without waiting for a street car to arrive in 10 years, then while watching the game, I could have some brews, and not worry about driving home with blurry eyes. Plus it would bring some life to DT Tacoma, people would probably go DownTown or stay after work more often and the DT restaurants and pubs would pick up some spillover customers before and after the games.
Y You're Welcome October 15, 2009
The same bus that can take you downtown will take you up 19th to Cheney. It’s just a short walk to the gates, just as close as the Sounder gets to the stadium.
T tacoma1 October 15, 2009
I’m quite familiar with the PT bus system, but I don’t live downtown. To get to Cheney Stadium for most Tacoma residents in a reasonable amount of time it takes a car, or an hour of buses and transfers.
Portland and Seattle have their sports stadiums downtown for a reason. Stadiums bring folks downtown, and keeps office workers downtown to catch a game after work. I don’t know of any city other than Tacoma that has their stadium in the burbs.
Thanks for the route info though.
N NSHDscott October 16, 2009
There are plenty of cities with stadiums in the burbs. One that comes to mind is the newish home of the Detroit Pistons, who play at the Palace of Auburn Hills, about 30 minutes outside Detroit. The home of Rainiers competition the Portland Beavers, in fact, is about to be moved to the suburb of Beaverton, which is appropriately named, I suppose. That said, just because there are examples doesn’t make them a good thing. I like the idea of a stadium downtown and I think it would do many good things for Tacoma, but unlike some of the other improvements discussed here (streetcars), I don’t think it will ever actually happen.
J Jesse October 16, 2009
Why don’t they move the Rainiers to Stadium Bowl and finish the bowl off. Spectacular views, it’s downtown, and the link will someday go right by it. You could even have soccer there.
I’d also love to see Stadium HS converted into a grand hotel. I seriously doubt those 16 year olds really and truely appreciate it. It’d be better than the Empress hotel in Victoria, with more things to do in Tacoma, and would add so much life.
J jamie from thriceallamerican October 16, 2009
I sense good things coming for the next commenter, who will have created the first-ever 133rd comment on an Exit133 story…
J Jesse October 16, 2009
Does it get me a t-shirt? HA!
J Jake October 16, 2009
@130
The home of Rainiers competition the Portland Beavers, in fact, is about to be moved to the suburb of Beaverton, which is appropriately named, I suppose.
I read an article a few weeks back from the Portland area talking about the Beavers moving to Beaverton. At the end of the article there was talk about how the Beavers contract ends with the Padres soon as well as the Rainiers with the Mariners. Just made it sound like the Portland area might try to grab the Mariners AAA team.
Y You're Welcome October 16, 2009
Perhaps a better short-term goal would be to ask Pierce Transit to come up with a game day shuttle. That is IF you would actually go to a game or find something else to whine about.
I’m completely opposed to relocating Cheney. I actually go to games and I have my whole life, because I like the minor leagues. Just because you “say” you’ll go to a game means you might go to a game or 2 in a new stadium and then pat yourself on the back for being such a good fan, but never go to a game again. Cheney is our history. I don’t like destroying history.
How many sporting events do you go to ever? I go to a bunch and that makes me the target market and I like Cheney Stadium just like it is.
Peace.
J jamie from thriceallamerican October 16, 2009
@130 Probably also worth mentioning that while the Beavers are potentially relocating elsewhere from PGE Park, the grounds of the park will be renovated for their Major League Soccer team tentatively entering the league in 2011 (boo Timbers!). Tacoma doesn’t exactly have the market for a top-division pro sports team, but if it did I’d hope we’d do what it takes to locate them near downtown (even if it meant kicking a minor league team out into the suburbs).
@135 Well I guess the rest of us should just shut the hell up then. Clearly everyone in your “target market” segment must agree with you… Cheney is a neat, historic stadium (which the owners have uglied up with all of that weird cladding they put on the outside). By the same token, I think a downtown stadium with some killer views would create an awesome gametime atmosphere and would be great for the bars and restaurants nearby. A bit of brainstorming and dreaming never hurt anyone.