Thoughts and Prayers

26 comments

• T Tacoma1 November 30, 2009

  Thanks for the link. I will use it. This is such a terrible, senseless tragedy.

• L l'etranger December 1, 2009

  Yes, thanks for the link, Derek.

  RR, that was a pretty crummy post by Jen Graves on Slog. The condescension and bogus stereotypes just ooze out of her — not the kind of sympathy that helps in the wake of a tragedy. I would have expected better from a former Tacoman.

• R RR Anderson December 1, 2009

  I like reading the pugnacious comments of folks standing up for our city of destiny in that jen graves stranger article.

• R RR Anderson December 1, 2009

  thanks joe,
  if we have to channel our rage someplace, seattle is as good a place as any.

  down with snooty art critics!

• N Non Sequitur December 1, 2009

  Forget Jen Graves, she’s one of them. Move on to the real issue.

  What REALLY concerns yours truly is 5 cops killed in a month. No one wants to talk about it, but there is a war against cops, against authority going on in the Puget Sound Region. Gangs own Seattle, Everett and Tacoma. No one wants to admit it, no one wants to acknowledge the shootings at Southcenter and Northgate being gang territory skirmishes.

  Ignoring the problem because the region is “so totally safe” is only going to put us back to 1986. Remember when walking the streets of Seattle or Tacoma was a guaranteed way to get beaten, mugged, raped or killed if you wore the wrong color? I do. I remember the day in 1985 when one of my closest friends was nearly beaten to death outside of Pike Place at 4 am.

  Ignorance is what got us there, it’s what is taking us back there.

• T tom waits December 1, 2009

  Whatever with the Jen Graves blog post. I’m sorry some of us here in Tacoma got our feelings hurt by the negative press. Can we talk about something else?

  Four officers assassinated, the alleged gunman shot and killed two days later. A horrible, horrible chain of events. And no justice for the victims.

  Now, predictably, people are trying to assign blame. Why was he out on bail? Why was his sentence commuted in Arkansas? Does any of that matter?

  I was channel flipping on the radio and caught an overheated Dori Monson on KIRO saying that the 3 Strikes law (that one that doesn’t really work) should be extended to repeat DUI offenders. You know, because drunk driving is actually premeditated attempted murder (no, it isn’t, Dori Moron).

  Even worse, people are bringing their actual political agenda items to the table. Because, you know, if the Forza baristas had been packing heat, this wouldn’t have happened. Or there would have been some vigilante justice in the parking lot. Some fool on the TNT website commented, “the cops better find him before I do.” Yeah, whatever. We need to loosen restrictions on firearms so the citizens of the most violent country in the world can shoot back…oh, wait, I mean shoot back with assault weapons.

  Then there are the hate mongers and out and out racists. Shocking, shocking stuff.

  Newsflash: it isn’t about whether or not citizens have untrammeled access to lethal weapons, or because we need stiffer sentencing and penalties. It is about chronic poverty, our violent culture, poor public education system, limited access to health care and mental health care, and limited opportunities for at risk youth.

  All the talk around this tragedy, dominated apparently by the “eye for an eye” folks…just makes me sick.

• N Non Sequitur December 1, 2009

  Blame Mike Huckabee.

  And execute him and all (then) Arkansas, as well as all current WA politicians.

  It’s win/win. State Budget woes are solved, and the lying politicians who can’t save us from ourselves are “taken care of”.

  WIN

• R RR Anderson December 2, 2009

  the stranger article is ridiculous.
  the macho eye for an eye god talk is ridiculous. Didn’t they get the ‘eye for an eye leaves the world blind’ memo? keep calm and carry on.

• S Stuart December 2, 2009

  “All the talk around this tragedy, dominated apparently by the “eye for an eye” folks…just makes me sick.”

  I have to agree with everything in your post, tom waits.

  This attitude toward justice is absolutely frustrating. I haven’t yet seen one news report or even one comment on a news report that questions the legitimacy of the death of Mr. Clemmons in Seattle. My tendency is to believe that the Seattle police officer acted responsibly, but the media should at least be scrutinizing the hell out of a situation where a suspect is killed while trying to FLEE. But instead all anyone can seem to say is “thank God.” Thank God for what? That a cop can kill a suspect if he disobeys and no one will question it? The vengeance cheerleaders in the comments of TNT articles are an embarrassment to our region. They seem to find further pleasure in imagining it was carried out under the color of law. What a way to honor the people who were murdered while wearing a uniform which exists to prevent exactly that.

  I’ve read nothing that suggests Clemmons’ death by police was justified. Hopefully as the story unfolds it will turn out that the officer acted appropriately, but the utter lack of concern from the media and the public is more than disheartening.

• S Squid December 2, 2009

  vengeance cheerleaders, exactly. What kind of culture, what kind of social fabric creates these kinds of demons? I am more frightened by the kook commenters on the TNT site than I am by random acts of violence. Where do we think such violence is spawned?

  Thanks to Exit133 for an island of sanity.

• D Dan December 2, 2009

  I disagree with the statement that no justification for shooting Mr. Clemmons has been provided (Stuart). The morning of that shooting, the police department stated that the officer involved recognized Clemmons immediately upon confronting him, made several commands that were disregarded, and then shot when the suspect began to move his hands toward his waist or belt area. To me, given the amount of evidence that the police had collected to physically link the suspect to the crime, that is a completely reasonable reaction by the police.

  Not all suspects are created equal, this person was not just a suspect, they had murder warrants from a judge. It seems to me that this was a STRONG suspect, who had a very distinguishing feature on his face, and the police were all certainly aware of what he looked like and the area that he was likely in. And of course they knew that he had a tendency to shoot police at random. So under the circumstances it seems quite reasonable to me that when a police encounters such a person and that person disregards commands or statements, they should do something to stop the person from fleeing the area, including shooting at the person.

  It is also not true that no one is scrutinizing that shooting, the officer is on administrative leave and the police department has stated that the shooting will be reviewed as all shootings are. The media has been tracking and reporting that entire process and reporting all the details of that shooting.

  Your statement that “a cop can kill a suspect if he disobeys and no one will question it” is not fair in my opinion. The police treat every suspect differently based on a huge number of unique factors. The police do not shoot DUI suspects for disregarding commands. They do not shoot burglary suspects who disobey. But when they have nearly certain identification of a suspect who has outstanding warrants for murder of 4 police in the preceding 48 hours, they are probably shooting at that person if the person disobeys them – but I think that’s ok because to me that demonstrates proper judgement. I think most people want the police to exercise good judgement and in this case it seems like the judgement was exceptional. And frankly I think that a lot of people think the police exercised good judgement and that’s why they are not asking a ton of questions. I don’t consider myself to be a vengeful, racist or violent person, but it’s really hard to see where the police went wrong here, or really even to see what part of this could have been done better by the police. I am totally in favor of asking a lot of questions of the police or anyone else when it seems like something has been done wrong, but I just don’t see it in this case. As far as Clemmons being shot in the back, flip that situation around for a second. I can imagine a lot of second guessing if that police officer lets Clemmons run away into the surrounding neighborhood and into the living room of some family at 2 AM holding 3 or 4 hostages. He had the chance to end a very bad situation, and he did his job.

• T tom waits December 2, 2009

  I personally don’t doubt the validity of the actions of any of the law enforcement agencies that participated in this case…there was a warrant for the arrest of Clemmons for murder of the police officers in Lakewood. The suspect being pursued had to, by definition, be considered armed and extremely dangerous. The police had a job to do under very difficult circumstances.

  However, I certainly get and sympathize with the sentiments expressed by Stuart. What I take issue with is where this has led our dialog as a community…vengeance cheerleaders is an excellent way to phrase it.

  Also, it sort of bothers me that people would view the end of this tragedy as anything but tragic. Sure, if he was guilty, then Clemmons was an awful, sick human being that, depending on your personal morals, may have had it coming.

  I, for one, think that adding to the body count is sad. I can’t say it would be a healthy exercise to drag this through courts, either, but we are a nation of laws and I hope a nation that still values human life. All of it – for better or worse.

• A Altered Chords December 2, 2009

  I think that most people are glad he is off the streets. The majority of people are feeling sympathy for the families of the killers victims. It is unclear to me how the “thoughts and prayers” of some commenters here are not of sympathy for the children that are now fatherless, concern for the safety of law abiding citizens or relief that a rapist and killer will rape and kill no more. No, the thoughts and prayers of some of the commenters here are of suspicion of and armchair quarterbacking of police activity.

  I am glad he is off the street. I never felt a need for revenge or “eye for eye” I have children and I do not want harm to come to them in any way. I look to the police to maintain laws like “raping is a crime” and “killing is a crime”

  It concerns me that this outpouring of grief for the poor murderer/child rapist is exactly what has led us to a place where violent criminals walk the street.

• T tom waits December 2, 2009

  This thread is the kind of community conversation I would have liked to see play out in the newspapers, etc.

  First and foremost, I am glad that he is off the streets, and truly heart sick over what the families of these officers are going through and will continue to have to endure.

  The fact that this person had friends and family who apparently knew what was going to happen, and who aided and abetted after the fact, boggles my mind. I don’t think I could expect the same from my family if I were in that position – they’d turn me in. As they should.

  I am not sure I would go so far as to say that these sentiments are shared by a majority of people. I got a much more acute sense of anger and vengeance from folks. But maybe, that is just me. Maybe I should quit reading the TNT blogs.

  I watch my kids and cry at the thought of such young people having to come to terms with something like this.

• B broadweezy December 2, 2009

  Aww, more backhanded “compliments” from Jen Graves in the name of empathy. Thanks Jen, as always, how self-serving of you.

• C Cash4Clunker December 2, 2009

  I was listening to the national news on Sirius. They kept saying “Seattle-area” as did the news guy on KIRO.

  Maybe it ain’t so bad.

• 6 6ther December 3, 2009

  I’m in agreement with Dan @13 on this one.

  That’s not to say cops don’t make mistakes sometimes and they typically get scrutinized more heavily than anyone else as a result.

  But I don’t think they made a mistake on this one. And further, if they are right and justified in shooting Clemmons then I can’t think of a better way to allow the families quick closure when it comes to their loved ones killer.

• M Matt December 3, 2009

  Given the extraordinary circumstances of this situation, the police acted in the proper manner of protecting the public at large. I’m glad the guy is off the street.

  What concerns me is this… I was at a local watering hole and one of the regulars came in and was showing people pictures of Clemmons dead body he had on his cell phone. It was obvious that the picture was taken at the scene.

  Where he got it from… I don’t know. What I do know is that someone (most likely from the police department) had snapped the picture and sent it out… seemingly from their phone. If I am correct in this unfolding of events, it’s tantamount to taking a trophy picture, which should not be happening… might as well take the body down to the pier and string it up.

  This kind of behavior propagates the vigilante stereotype that a lot of people have about law enforcement.

  We live in a society that glorifes this sort of behavior… just look at the TV & movies… and then we wonder why such things continue to happen… and I’m talking about both sides of the fence here.

  Bascially, garbage in – garbage out.

• S Stuart December 3, 2009

  @ Dan

  My comment was not intended to criticize the actions of police or draw any conclusions about the legitimacy of the outcome. Perhaps for the sake of brevity I had worded it poorly, but I was commenting strictly on treatment of the event by certain media and the lovely apoplectic “discussions” which accompany.

  I should have been more specific in citing as examples the news which I was referencing. Many (most) news sources failed to be concerned with Clemmons’ death in adequate detail. Very little information was published in the news media surrounding the suspect’s demise in Seattle, and these agencies and much less the “I hope he burns in hell” commenters didn’t seem to be in any hurry to gather any additional important details.

  I see now that The Seattle Times report had covered the story satisfactorily only a few hours after the event. I am grateful of that. The failure of these other agencies to me is indicative of what interest is expected from the audience. That is what troubles me.

  So this is what I am lamenting. I am not speaking against the police nor am I trying to defend Mr. Clemmons. I am frustrated by the spiteful attitude in the public discourse. Now the picture of Clemmons’ corpse is being worshiped all over the internet.The racism, bigotry, and crazed political nonsense is an added bonus.

  Obviously we’re all glad that a prolific killer has been successfully “nuetralized,” but the point is that it seems that most commenters by their language would have preferred him murdered instead. Frothy hell-banishing won’t bring anyone back.

  Such an immature response to a very serious and lasting tragedy won’t do anything to make anyone (including police) safer, is embarrassing I think to our community, and trivializes the real damage that Maurice Clemmons and his accomplices caused.

• T tom waits December 3, 2009

  @Stuart: I very much appreciate your thoughtful post, and I agree. Well stated.

• 6 6ther December 3, 2009

  Matt @20-
  I’m pretty sure that picture is a fake. I’ve seen it from a few different sources and the word is its a doctored picture.

• D Dan December 3, 2009

  Stuart – I agree. I think what you are seeing is an example of the negative impact that the internet has had on public discourse and communication. In my opinion (and I recognize that many people disagree with this), the internet has been both good and bad in terms of it’s affect on public discourse. It has helped in some ways but it has also created an opportunity for people to casually and anonymously promote some alarming and vicious opinions – it has also made it incredibly easy for people with extreme viewpoints and opinions to effectively select only information that validates their viewpoints, and ignore everything else. But I also think that the people that make comments like the ones you mentioned are still a small minority in our society, or at least I am hoping they are!

• T Thorax O'Tool December 3, 2009

  @ Dan:

  That’s free speech for ya. You have to take the idiots with the intellectuals, the ignorant with the informed because it’s Our Right… the Founding Fathers were pretty insightful when they crafted the Law of the Land.
  The internet, for good or ill, has been a boon for free speech.
  It’s your job, as a critically thinking adult, to decide for yourself what you want to believe.

  This is why so many governments, including our own, are deathly afraid of the internet.

• A Altered Chords December 3, 2009

  Our own government is afraid of the Internet?

  Really?

  Our own government created the internet.

  Why that’s like saying God is afarid of the universe.

• S Squid December 4, 2009

  I find it sadly ironic that it is exactly the vengance cheerlearders who weave the social fabric that in fact create our Maurice Clemmonses. To be honest, given the intolerance, racism, hatred, and outright ignorance I’ve been reading lately, it’s actually surprising that this kind of thing isn’t happening more often. I’d like to think it is a vocal minority, but I am not so sure anymore.

• A Altered Chords December 4, 2009

  Squid: He thought he was Jesus Christ, He thought he could fly and was seen jumping in his back yard repeadedly attempting to take off. He suggested to his family that they take off their clothes 5 minutes a day. He alledgedly raped a relative.

  This is way beyond being the product of intolerance, racism, hatred and outright ignorance. I’m not a trained psychologist but it seems like mental illness to me.

  It is unfortunate that we do not yet understand psychosis well enough to gaurantee effective treatment. I find it even more disturbing that the treatment we do have is not readily available. I heard yesterday of a mental health provider cutting staff because of the budget defecit of the state.

  To say that intolerance, racism, hatred and ignorance causes violent behavior nullifies the accomplishments great people have made in SPITE of obstacles like intolerance, racism, hatred and ignorance and completley removes the responsibility that we all have for our own actions.